CHICAGO, IL - JANUARY 28: Chael Sonnen sits in his corner between rounds during his bout against Michael Bisping during the UFC on FOX event at United Center on January 28, 2012 in Chicago, Illinois. (Photo by Nick Laham/Zuffa LLC/Zuffa LLC via Getty Images)
For me, the most indelible image of Chael Sonnen was at UFC 55. Renato Sobral is dominating the fight. Sobral is the one scoring the takedowns from the clinch, and batters Sonnen at one point with a high kick, which he follows up with several punches that rock Chael. Thirty seconds are left in the first when Sobral applies an ankle lock. With the camera situated in front of Chael as he's gripping the fence, all that's heard in response is the sound of Sonnen screaming in pain.
Most fans are aware of this moment, and the Sobral fight was probably one of the first fights that came to any mind for those scratching their heads while Sonnen claimed to have "never lost a round" in his interview with Ariel Helwani.
Given the persona he's created for himself, one wonders whether or not Chael's cry of pain at UFC 55 has been his most sincere outburst ever since.
Recalling that moment is not an attempt to ‘be cute', or to fondly remember Sonnen's failures. Instead it's a vivid reflection of what has changed (besides the move to MW), if anything has changed at all.
Who is this guy and where did he come from? Is he playing to the crowd, or is this who he is? I think the fact that he's nurtured and developed this "character" of his tells us that he is who says he is, at least in part. But that's not to say his words deserve any more weight. He has a record of mortgage fraud and money laundering, and was the architect of a circus involving CSAC over rules he broke. If his words do deserve weight, a pinch of salt comes first.
None of this is news, or even insight. But for the first time, his performance at UFC on FOX 2 reminded us that the reinvention of who he is did not bring with it a reinvention of how he fights.
Sonnen deserved his title shot, and he beat very good fighters to get there. But against Bisping, we still saw the awkward standup. We saw the anxiety and predictability of Chael getting the fight to the ground because he needs to, or else his flaws are laid bare. Except we saw him struggle with the latter, while validating the former against Michael Bisping. To set up a fight against Anderson Silva.
The fight wasn't terrible, but the performance by Sonnen wasn't masterful. And it merely lent credence to the admittedly oversimplified narrative in the aftermath of UFC 117 that Silva was injured enough to be truly hindered, and that Sonnen was juiced enough to be truly effective. Even his usually clever post-fight speech felt forced, rushed, and no matter how inspired an attempt at imitation, was "incongruous", as Nate Wilcox put it.
Sonnen can ‘crack wise' with his barely contained xenophobia with the MMA media. He can play games with the California State Athletic Commission, or Decision One Mortgage. But he can't play games in the cage against Anderson Silva, and his bout this weekend did little to convince the "blowhards with their blowdarts" he's ready to replicate his performance in Oakland when the summer rolls around.
2 recs | 191 comments
For the record
I do think Sonnen has improved as a fighter, but not by much. He’s much more aggressive with his offensive grappling, but it remains to be seen how much his defensive grappling has improved.
David Castillo - January 30, 2012
The steroids helped immensely. Look at the fight and appearance with Maia. Now he’s much more muscular and his jowls are full, etc. Plus it increases aggressiveness which is apparent in him too. But skill.. i agree, marginally improved.
Marc Gunn - January 30, 2012
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeec'd!!!
gspmademegay - January 30, 2012
you gonna rec the man or what?
Victor Rodriguez - January 30, 2012
The idea that this was somehow all roids is ridiculous.
Do you make the same claim for Hendo and Randy? For Mo Lawal?
Hell, Marquardt has been roided out for years and years, and Chael beat him soundly.
Does TRT help Chael? Certainly. But he wouldn’t be winning if that was the only change in his game.
It is true that we still haven’t seen Chael really prove that his defensive grappling (particularly over 5 rounds) is any better than it ever was.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
It's his activity from the top
That leads to him getting submitted, more so than a deficiency in his defensive grappling IMO. It’s a percentage game; he throws so many strikes from top position that at some point the guy on the bottom is going to lock up wrist control, or control his posture enough to set up a triangle.
Patrick Wyman - January 30, 2012
That sounds plausible,
but I feel like if Sonnen would focus on passing, and not JUST striking from guard, he could avoid 90% of those submissions. Instead he sort of sits there in guard—some can get away w/ this (e.g. prime Fedor), but not Chael.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
Very true
Which is why Chael generally prefers to strike from half guard if he can get there, much like Lesnar. Where he runs into trouble is exactly what you pointed out – sitting in somebody’s guard and then getting caught with an inevitable submission. With that said, though, it’s not like he’s getting subbed by novices.
Patrick Wyman - January 30, 2012
IDK
Some of his old fights really shown inept submission defense. He is getting better, but still makes big mistakes.
T.P. Grant - January 30, 2012
I don't know that Chael has improved much there,
but the stuff he was good at before, he is better at now.
jhf884 - January 31, 2012
it wasn't all riods
but you cannot deny it made a big impact. Just look at Sonnen fights before and after, and see a big difference in his strength, activity and stamina.
T.P. Grant - January 30, 2012
Do we know when he started using?
Obviously, Chael is better suited to 185, I just would be surprised if a guy like him started using PEDs (including TRT) only recently.
jhf884 - January 31, 2012
when he shifted from one quest team to another he started using TRT
I think it was around 2008, but I don’t remember exactly. Someone want to confirm?
T.P. Grant - January 31, 2012
Interesting,
I guess my opinion of Chael the person is pretty low, since I kinda assume either (a) he doesn’t need TRT and just abused it for a long time, or (b) he genuinely needs it, but only b/c he killed his balls by roiding for years.
For the record, I think TRT does help fighters, particularly as they get into their mid to late 30s. But I don’t think it is a replacement for actual skills.
jhf884 - January 31, 2012
he might have been juicing before
and now getting the official medical treatment just meant it was under better control and getting better results.
or his T levels might never have been low, and the guys at Team Quest hooked him up with a doc that will get him the paperwork.
It doesn’t replace skills, but MMA is becoming more and more about athleticism and it is hard to deny his athletic output took a jump around say… 2008
T.P. Grant - January 31, 2012
Roids = better recovery = ability to train harder and longer = more skill.
lucaG21 - January 30, 2012
---> "Do you make the same claim for Hendo and Randy?"
Do you really think that those guys just magically blossomed into a peak at 40+ ?
OF COURSE the TRT played a huge part.
So if you are asking why aren’t more people pointing fingers at Randy and Hedno…. well
……THEY AREN’T ASSHOLES
Clark Griswald - January 31, 2012
You're as delusional as chael is you think he beat marquardt soundly
also the fact that marquardt has been roided out for years, come on dude. the levels were elevated because he was cutting to 170 for the first time and his doctor was an idiot. and randy? the fuck are you even talking about?
Scurnt - January 31, 2012
Riiiight
Marquardt has admitted to using Roid for years, he has been busted by the NSAC for roids (not TRT) and his T was so high that he had to pull out of a headline fight for the UFC.
Randy was also on TRT for quite some time.
Do some research before you start calling names.
jhf884 - January 31, 2012
He hasn't added anything flashy and new,
but the fact that he took down Okami, Marquardt, dominated even a hurt Silva for 4 rounds, and won (albeit in an ugly fashion) over Bisping shows that Chael has significantly improved.
Chael may still have the same flaw
-sub defense-and may not have any new flashy skills, but what the things he does well, he is better at now. And he integrates them into his game better as well.jhf884 - January 30, 2012
Kinda
I think hes a good solid fighter but hes alittle ahead of himself.I honestly thought he was going to toss bisping around like a doll.
Sonnen is still VERY beatable.
Ohhighthere1 - January 30, 2012
I picked
Bisping because I thought Sonnen would be heavy enough on top to allow Bisping to attempt submissions all day. I never would have thought Bisping was strong enough to scramble and defend like he did, but I wonder if his best chance wasn’t simply staying on his back. Although I guess not since some have argued Bisping won: I don’t think Mike did on first viewing, but I haven’t rewatched it.
David Castillo - January 30, 2012
To be fair
I dont recall anyone being able to truly control Bisping on the ground….Hendo probably could have but didn’t exactly have to take that route to win.
boscomma - January 30, 2012
yea Bisping flys under the radar sometimes via hes kinda comes off as a dick and has pillow hands.
Ohhighthere1 - January 30, 2012
Max out that TRT prescription from now until mid to late Spring, Chael.
sexysassytravismmafan - January 30, 2012
I actually think that and maybe a lack of pre fight PED’s could be a huge reason for his lackluster performance saturday night ? I think he knows he is getting watched a hell of alot more close buy athletic commission officals and did not want to risk pissing hot ? Who knows though
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
He looked like the old Chael Sonnen against Bisping, the guy who was mediocre at best and lacked the beast strength to take people down at will. Wonder why that is………..
Hutchy - January 30, 2012
Why do you assume Chael isn't still on TRT?
do we know that?
I thought Chael was still using it, but had gotten his paperwork ducks in a row. The sad fact is that anyone can be approved, if only they fill out the right forms and find a doctor to say they need it for a “medical condition”
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
I don’t know one way or another ? All I can do is make assumptions
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
No matter what
He still can’t test at 16.9:1 T:E. He wasn’t just on TRT, he was in the middle of a damn beast mode cycle.
joker24 - January 30, 2012
C'mon this is not why he looked bad
He looked bad because Bisping is absolutely excellent at scrambling back to his feet. That is consistent through all his fights.
KGNLuc - January 30, 2012
You Sure About That????
Because it didn’t see very consistent in the first round of the Miller fight before he gassed. Its obvious Chael underestimated Bisping in this fight so didn’t juice up and almost paid the price. I’m willing to make a paypal bet that he doesn’t leave the second round against Silva this summer. Anyone wanna take me up on that?
Brad Bateman - January 31, 2012
If I remember correctly, Miller did get the mount, but it was when Bisping’s back was against the cage, making it tough for Miller to really get good offense in as he wasn’t in a good position to do so, and Bisping was already in a position to get back to his feet. Bisping actually has been very consistent at getting back to his feet when taken down, and I don’t think that KGNLuc was that far off saying that.
chrisbboy82 - January 31, 2012
Let me tell you something Mean Gene.....
Sonnen talks a way bigger game than he brings to the cage. But it gives him the notoriety to position himself into the big fights. As David points out in this article, Sonnen is basically the same fighter he has always been, but now that he cuts promos like a young Hogan, he will continue to get high profile fights because people either love him for his pro wrasslin style, or want to see someone take his head off. This will all stop when Anderson exposes him this summer with what I can only assume will be an epic shit kicking.
HeadKickOfDoom - January 30, 2012
Sonnen is using the Floyd MAyweather approach. Floyd Mayweather wasnt a star for years. He couldnt sell out his own hometown (true story). His fights were legendarily boring (and still are). However, Floyd just kept saying, against all evidence to the contrary, that he was a huge star, the P4P best in boxing, and just kept saying it and saying it, nd basically WILLEd it into being true, because he realized something: most people in America are morons, and the media is totally clueless. If you say something enough times, no matter how much of a blatant lie it is, some people will believe. I promise you, 30% of the casual fans out there actually believe Sonnen beat Silva and that the real belt. Say it enough times, the idiots of the world will believe you, and the media (who doesnt really care about your niche sport to begin with) wont do enough research to call you on it. Dana has been using this approach for years with the mainsteam media.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012
Well
Except that part where Floyd Mayweather actually is an incredible boxer.
joker24 - January 30, 2012
Well
Sonnen is an incredible wrestler
Hugin - January 30, 2012
He's not an incredible mixed martial artist.
Sugel Mendoza - January 30, 2012
damn, son.
that’s cold. but true.
rec’d
Victor Rodriguez - January 30, 2012
I know he’s not. The man is only ranked 2nd best in the MW devision buy most every MMA website that has meaning or Credibility. If that does not make you incredible at your trade or profession I don’t know what the hell does then. There is only one spot above 2nd best now ? I guess only that spot must be filled as a fighter to be considered incredible or great buy your peers or Fans now ?
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
I'm not saying he sucks,
I’m also saying he isn’t a particularly spectacular fighter. I mean just because you’re at the top of their division doesn’t mean they’re incredible. Rashad, Maynard, and Mendes are the #2 ranked fighters of their divisions, would you call them incredible fighters.
Sugel Mendoza - January 30, 2012
yes I would
Shocbomb - January 31, 2012
He might be an incredible boxer. He might not be. Unfortunately, we won’t ever know because he’s terrified to fight anyone who has a remote chance of actually beating him.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Castillo, Corrales?
Not to mention, Mayweather’s recent oponents may not be great, but they are hardly worse than Pacquiao’s recent list.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
Turned down 8 mil to fight a prime Castillo. Turned down multiPle chances to fight Shane Mosely til he was 159 years old. Turned down multiple chances to fight a prime Paul Williams. Has ducked Manny 517 times.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
And he lostto Castillothe first time , regardless of scorecard
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
In what universe is Castillo
Past his prime, when Mayweather fought him?
Ridiculous!
Plus Mosley had just beaten Margarito, and wasn’t viewed as a shot fighter at the time.
So say what you want, but Pac doesnt have a better case.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
No, he's an expert boxer.
One of the best of his generation for sure, and up there with the all time greats.
ElliotMatheny - January 30, 2012
No
Mayweather IS an incredible boxer. He has definately ducked cotto, margorito, and pac at different times. But that doesn’t change the fact that he has beaten great fighters and rarely ever gets hit by them. Marquez, Castillo, corrales, baldomir, Old Mosley, hatton, Hernandez, Judah and many others were rated 1 or 2 in there division and top 10 p4p whenhe fought them
bert44 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
Rec'd for truth and i dont even like the guy
Not only that but he’s UNDEFEATED unlike Chael
AfroSamurai - January 30, 2012
Mayweather wasn't just talkin the talk...
he’s undefeated, he walks the walk. Sonnen on the other hand… couldn’t even walk the walk using PEDs.
Kid Kimura - January 30, 2012
I mean Sonnen Did Murder 5 Hookers in Mexico afterall
FLOJO - January 30, 2012
yeah, it was in the late 90’s…people tend to forget things
alibabarouge - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Allegedly, gentlemen
It was never fully proven, even though he may have gotten away on a technicality.
KGNLuc - January 31, 2012
This is nonsense.
Floyd Mayweather IS the best boxer p4p in the world and he has been for a long time. He had a hard time selling tickets early in his Career but 99 percent of boxers do. Floyd has been beating champions in different divisions his WHOLE career, is undefeated, and a huge moneymaking star. A little different from sonnen.
bert44 - January 31, 2012 via mobile
I think it just turned out that Bisping had the perfect skillset and gameplan to counter Sonnen perfectly. He still crushed a lot of top MWs, I don’t think this fight showed anything of Sonnen that wasn’t there before, he is still the same guy that nearly beat SIlva
StevenGiles - January 30, 2012
hey man,
Thanks for that. I have been beating this drum for a while and this fight definitely lent credence to the argument. Sonnen parlayed that almost-win into the character you see today. Without it, well, I think Munoz is better, personally, at a similar game. At the end of the day, Sonnen is a better promoter than a fighter, IMO. But he’s making money, until the rematch, cuz if he loses that, where does he go next? All that patter has to go away, don’t you think?
DankNabbot - January 30, 2012
Sonnen has always been vulnerable
But Bisping has very crisp and technical striking which gives every opponent who can’t wade through for the knock out shot trouble. Couple that with some seriously underrated takedown defense and clinch work and its a recipe for a poor performance from Sonnen.
At the end of the day, Bisping is a top five middle weight and Sonnen beat him (I didn’t have the fight scored that way but all that matters is the judges did). He talks a lot but hes still a very capable challenger to any MW alive.
Day Man - January 30, 2012
Sonnen
Has the very best offensive wrestling game in MMA. The fact that Bisping is able to shut it down for the better part of two rounds is more evidence of Bisping’s well-rounded game than it is of Sonnen’s deficiencies.
Patrick Wyman - January 30, 2012
Jon Jones, GSP
T.P. Grant - January 30, 2012
THIS
Thank You for stating the obviously for the Chael Troll
Brad Bateman - January 31, 2012
The Bisping fight is in no way a precursor to the Silva rematch because Bisping can actually wrestle
Earl Montclair - January 30, 2012
I would argue
that Silva can too. He doesn’t have the raw strength, but he makes up for it with distance and mechanics (re: Marquardt). Silva actually avoided several of Chael’s takedowns: it just so happened that when Sonnen did get him down, the fight stayed there.
David Castillo - January 30, 2012
Silva actually had a pretty good sprawl back in the day,
but I wonder if Silva’s TDD hasn’t deteriorated, what w/ the multiple knee injuries. I’d have to go rewatch the fights pre and post surguries to get a sense of that.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
his striking is his best TDD… can’t get anywhere near him without eating some shots
Pat Tzu - January 30, 2012
He just used the Bisping fight to rope a dope Anderson Silva
Skoobs - January 30, 2012
Slap yo self
ThatsHowIRoll - January 30, 2012
Chael only scored 3 takedowns on 7 attempts
… and you can look up the compustrike report of the fight or even fight metric if you want further proof. I’d say Anderson has solid TDD he’s showed it in the Marquardt fight too. only fight you can say he showed poor TDD is the Lutter fight for some odd reason. You see the switches he pulls on fighters that try to single leg him? They’re beautiful. IE. Patrick Cote, Nate Marquardt and yes even Chael “Fail” Sonnen in their fight. Watch again people
Brad Bateman - January 31, 2012
I myself think Chael’s stick is getting quite old and played out.From what I gather his fight with Bisping and his post fight rant were the only real bright spots from the Fox show for most casual fans and fans who were there live according to Meltzer and Mike Coughlin.
One thing I do know is not even 4 hours ago when I was getting lunch at the local corner store there were high school kids in there also, it was there lunch period and I over heard them talking about the Fox show and all they were going on about is how much they loved Chael and they all seemed to get a huge kick from his post fight renactment of Superstar Billy Graham’s Interview.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Sonnen isnt good. Hes never been good. Hes the same guy who had a dead man walking in Filho standing right in front of him for 3 rounds and did nothing about it. He has no real subs to speak of. He has no real striking to speak of, or any power behind his GNP. His sub D is legendarily bad. He has two things going for him: a granite chin, and good top control if he can get you to the ground. Thats it. He has benefited from good style matchups and a boost in his workrate and strength from TRT. Thats about it. Fraudulent through and through.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012
He has to be pretty dam solid at MMA now – NO, I don’t think its all just blind luck to beat Top MW’s over and over again like Okami,Marquardt,Bisping,Stann,etc now do you
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Nope, not blind luck, just a mix of great style matchups and a TRT fuled boost in performance. He lost to Bisping in my opinion. What do Stann, Okami, and Marquardt have in common? No threat from the bottom. I suppose if you think Okami is a world beater, that was mildly impressive, I just dont happen to feel that way. Okami has shown me absolutely nothing to indicate he is anything other then slightly above average in any catagory.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012
Those great style match ups are the top of the devision, And I could care less about ,TRT,Roids,Blood doping,stimulants and amphetamines,GHB,or any other type of PED becasue I look at as if all fighters are on atleast one thing on the list I names or multiple things when they step into the octagon to fight.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
If Okami is not a world beater or any of those names you or I listed at 185 then who the hell is then ? Do you have to have some sick guard now at 185 to be considered a top MW in your eyes or something
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
I think he meant you have to have a sick guard to be an unfavorable matchup for Chael. Which is kinda true but good wresting and heavy hands would do the trick as well, I guess.
KGNLuc - January 30, 2012
I don’t care what he is trying to say, its quite evident you can’t have a decent debate with the man when it comes to Chael and probably any other fighter he dislikes,maybe even MMA for that matter ? Saying something like Okami is just your run of the mill average MW says it all to me.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Dude, it's Hutchy, and this is a Sonnen thread...
this is what happens.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Whats crazy is I don’t even root for Chael. I don’t like or dislike him eather, And I actually find his stick is becoming very old very quick,That being said I will stick up for any athlete when someone trys downplaying there accomplishments or ability with utter nonsense.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
I can appreciate the sentiment...
but it’s a lost cause here on the internetz.
Husky’s argument boils down to “Sonnen was using TRT when he had his best wins, therefore the past several years don’t count.” He either really believes it, or loves trolling with it… either way, there’s no reasoning with him.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
I did not know that info – thanks for the heads up though ,I guess no matter what I post I am fighitng a lossing battle then.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Just looked it up
He only has 1 finish (Brian Stann sub) in all of his WEC/UFC career. Wow.
sexysassytravismmafan - January 30, 2012
14 fights
sexysassytravismmafan - January 30, 2012
This is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever seen anyone post on this site.
Worldisart - January 30, 2012
I don’t understand it myself, Sure you can hate a fighter all you want but when you start saying a Top fighter sucks and has always sucked and you try anything to pick holes as to why he has beaten other top 10 fighters it just shows how ignorant and unskilled your MMA knowledge is. It would be like a Giant Fan saying the Pat’s suck and always have and there other super bowl victories mean nothing becasue they did not have a solid running game then ? Or that Cardinals suck and there World Series Win was Shit becasue they did not have a solid bullpen
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
It's a product of ignorance.
If he hates the guy so much that he can’t even form a coherent argument as to why he sucks, he should just stay out of the conversations on these topics. But I mean that’s MMA fans for you, they like to paint everything in broad strokes.
Worldisart - January 30, 2012
I formed a very coherent argument in my original post. You can reply to it if you wish. Or not, I’m not looking to change anyone’s mind. Chael’s huge flaws are right there on display on a regular basis, they kinda speak for themselves.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
What a load of crap
So because he’s not perfect (and no fighter is) he sucks?
Worldisart - January 30, 2012
His argument was coherent
Chael sucks because his style is extremely conservative.
Chael is over-rated because his last 5 opponents in a row have been strikers (Okami is a well rounded striker)
Do you guys have arguments?
RightTriangle - January 30, 2012
Those 5 opponents were Top 10 fighters at the time he fought them, and is 4-1 against them.
A fighter can’t have that kind of record and be considered overrated.
Sugel Mendoza - January 30, 2012
Who cares what type of fighter’s they are.All that matters is they were/are some of the best in the devision, I can see hating Chael and busting on him for his character defects like being a felon and being on TRT.I can also see busting on his non stop stick,etc but to diminish the man’s standing in the devision by trying to nitpick at his opponents flaws and trying to downplay there standing also just makes me see you can’t have a intelligent MMA debate
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
also I very much disagree that Okami is considered a Striker with a well rounded base, He is more in my eyes a Japanese fighter from a judo background that has adapted a western wrestling style as his base and has a decent Jab and 1,2, Thats about all,
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
I think you are misunderstanding me, so I’ll try s less inflammatory approach. I find all of MW vastly overrated, filled with flawed, one dimensional one trick ponies. Sonnen has thrived recently, and good on him. All I’m saying is, im just not impressed with him as a fighter. Let him dO it consistently post TRT suspension and I will be the first to give credit. If He can pull it off against Vitor , Anderson, and a possible Bisping rematch , then my gay is off.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Wow….that’s the most interesting IphOne autocorrect I’ve seen yet lol my HAT is off…..my HAT.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I was wondering where the hell that came from.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
You know what Hutchy I can agree with you on your opinion of the MW devision. When I look at the talent overall in the devision I do think MW is probably the weakest devision in MMA besides the HW devision. That is one thing I do actually agree with you on
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
might have to make this my new sig
The Lethal Haze - January 30, 2012
don't do it!
i love your sig
i giggle every time i see it
Cunny - January 31, 2012
What did Okami do against Silva?
Did he try to wrestle him? Work any judo? As bad a gameplan as it was, he tried to out-box him and got picked apart. In other words, he resorted to striking when he needed his best stuff.
I consider him well rounded because he used offensive wrestling to beat Marquardt and defensive wrestling and boxing to beat Munoz.
Judo background, some western wrestling, decent Jab 1,2 = all true and that is why he is well rounded with a subtle preference to box and wrestle when he needs it.
RightTriangle - January 31, 2012
If were going to have an intelligent MMA debate
the word is division. not devision. I don’t think that’s even a word.
More importantly, you must realize that styles make fights and can make fighters. I would not put so much stock in “the rankings” as they are subjective in nature. An elite fighter has the tools to deal with different opponent types. No one is discrediting Chael, the person, for decisively layNpraying over the striker heavy MW division. However, one can logically question the ability level of Chael or potential of Chael has a fighter due to the static nature of his opponents style.
If Dan Hardy ran into a decent wrestler on his win streak, he likely would not have got to his title shot. In a similar way, Hendo, Munoz, Belfort, or the humble Paul Harris could easily have hurt Chael’s stock if they crossed paths.
RightTriangle - January 31, 2012
First off I could care less on how its spelled as long as you can understand what I am trying to say, its not like I am going to hand this post into my 7th grade English teacher now for a grammer check.
2nd if you ask most any MMA fan what type of fighter Okami ishis base most a good 8 out of 10 would say a Wrestler.Striking is the last thing that comes to my mind when I think of Okami. Also I mujst of watched a totaly different fight then you when he fought Anderson ? I thought Okami did try to use his judo and Wrestling but It did not work he failed, He tried to get underhooks multiple times but was ripped off buy Anderson, he tried to press Anderson against the cage and from there was woring for a takedown or toss, Anderson did a hell of a job stoping his attempts.
Shocbomb - January 31, 2012
/Cardinals dork nitpicking
The Cardinals actually had a really good bullpen once they dumped all the deadweight + the Rasmus trade. Motte put it together, Salas was really good the whole year, Dotel was a k-killer, Lynn throwing 95 with life in the bullpen was pretty nasty and Rzepczynski a solid lefty.
joker24 - January 30, 2012
there pen did fall into place and find itself at the perfect time, Actually it reminded me alot of the 2009 Yanks pen, Are Pen that year did not start coming together and firing on all cylinders until the ALCS we got threw the Twins with Starting pitching and offense alone. Most Yankee fans forget how much Damaso Marte coming out of the pen as a lefty specialist did, He shit down all those huge lefty’s in the Phillies line up, he owned Utley & Howard late in the game.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
actually the 09 playoff’s was when David Robertson started coming into his own
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Know what's sad?
As dumb as that statement is there have been PLENTY of dumber things said in these comments
MemphisMike - January 30, 2012
*not these comments in particular...but on this site
MemphisMike - January 30, 2012
then obviously you havent been reading my comments.
gspmademegay - January 30, 2012
I bet he could choke you to death in less than 1 minute.
IKiIIed007 - January 30, 2012
The #2 MW in the world has never been good?
Holy shit.
SSreporters - January 30, 2012
So, what Marquardt, Okami, and Stann are Chopped Liver?
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
Well it's a good topic.
But it wasn’t taken in the right direction.
0U - January 30, 2012
Sonnen is a one trick pony
We all know that Anderson was injured and chael was on roids. If these two things were not present Anderson would have beat him in 2 rounds top. I love how ppl say oh Anderson can’t wrestle, but its funny how every Wrestler that he has faced he beat buy submission or TKO .
Bisping beat Chael two rounds out of three. ( I love how another fellow trt abuser Hendo said that Bisping can’t handle sonnen. hahahaaa) That trt is messing up hendos brain.
All chael can do is take someone down and then what? Hit them with pillow hands. If he can’t get the fight down he has no other options.
Chael sonnen sucks.
silat420 - January 30, 2012
I know he only has problems against Sub par JMMA fighters who come form a Judo background like Daiju Takase and Ryo Chonan
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
LOL you have been reading Fightfinder again, havent you? Try putting those fights into some kind of context, chief.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012
Where else do 99.9% of MMA fans go to look up records ? fight finder its a great tool now
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
What kid of context would you like ?
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Sucks? LOL
The last 5 years:
Record: 10-3
Notable wins: Bisping, Stann, Marquardt, Okami, Miller, Filho
Losses: Filho (WEC Champion), Maia (Title Shot Eliminator), Silva (Pound for Pound Greatest of all Time)
Your comment: Retarded.
IKiIIed007 - January 30, 2012
The Maia fight was not a title shot eliminator.
bigdmmafan - January 30, 2012
Shit my bad.
you’re right.
IKiIIed007 - January 30, 2012
No wonder he hates Brazilians so much
AHutch - January 30, 2012 via mobile
So what your saying is, he trucked a bunch of cans and lost against anyone of remotequality until discovering the wonders of TRT? Awesome. Then he went out, post TRT bust, and looked like the exact same mediocre Sonnen who struggled against the worlds biggest crackhead twice in WEC? Fantastic. What else ya wanna discuss?
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
2-0 against top 10 MWs since getting popped for TRT. Go ahead and find a new argument sir, you have lost this one.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Stann is Sonnen's stylistic wet dream
and Sonnen barely squeaked by Bisping, who everyone has been shitting on forever as not having any wins worth being ranked in the top 10 for.
The Lethal Haze - January 30, 2012
Well, truthfully...
outside of 2 or 3 guys, all of MW is a pile of crap, so I’m not too caught up in who’s better than who in the division… but Sonnen’s beaten the guys put in front of him, and that’s all he can do.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Can't really argue with that
and I was really just responding to your “challenge” lol. Sonnen is one dimensional and damn good at what he does… and that one dimension he’s good at can take you very far in MMA.
I used to hate Sonnen (and I do hate his fighting style). The hate for him has died down alot, after watching him at the post fight press conference.
I will say this… i think he has been the beneficiary of some favorable matchmaking. Why have Chael fight Bisping instead of Maia when Munoz got injured? Its odd the UFC threw him a stylistically favorable matchup instead of a rematch where he was SCRUBBED. Or maybe its not odd. I dunno. I felt like they protected him.
The Lethal Haze - January 30, 2012
Sonnen's always more likable post-fight.
Not that that’s saying much. But even after the Silva fight, he was pretty respectful.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the UFC intentionally avoided the Maia rematch, but record-wise, the BIsping fight made more sense.
Honestly though, Sonnen would crush the same Maia that fought Weidman. I donno what’s gotten into Maia’s head, but he thinks he’s a kickboxer now. Or maybe just a boxer. Or, actually, just a guy who likes to stick his right hand out and throw straight lefts. It makes me want to cry.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
More favorable matchup?
Did you see Maia? He would’ve kickboxed him and gassed even sooner after getting out from under Chael for the third time after stalling a bit and looking at the ref. ;)
KGNLuc - January 31, 2012
yeah, cause everyone knew Maia would gas horribly before saturday night
Try working with the data we had before the fight was made, not after.
The Lethal Haze - February 1, 2012
Hutchy you sound like you belong on Sherdog forums asap
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Lol I can’t believe I’m gaining this rep here…..I truly don’t believe my opinions are that crazy. Saying a guy who had been consistently mediocre prior to Maia, and looking a bit skeptically at his accomplishments, didn’t seem that radical to me. So, here’s one for the pro-Sonnen crowd: I think Chael would absolutely truck Vitor, embarrass him. So, for those who say I give Sonnen no credit, there you go!
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
WEll maybe not the Dog now.Thats just going alittle to far and was said out of frustration.Hey after reading your post yes they do get me fired up but I will give you this atleast you fire back with well written arguements and opinions not matter how crazy and out there I may think they are. Sherdog forums are a whole nother animal onto themself
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Notable wins: Stann (a solid win), Bisping (lackluster decision) Marquardt (lackluster decision) , Okami (lackluster decision) , Miller (lackluster decision), Filho (lackluster decision against a guy who literally was hallucinating)
Losses: Filho (got finished), Maia (got finished), Silva (got finished)
RightTriangle - January 30, 2012
Whoever came up with the notion that decisions are not as legitimate as finishes
(and kos > subs) needs to die in a ditch.
sun yue - January 30, 2012
Hmm...Oh I see it, he has no submission defense whatsoever!
Meek Mill - January 30, 2012
reality check
Chael paid his dues at middleweight by trucking Okami, Marquardt and Miller, then adding Brian Stann to the pile. That is as good of a two year run up to now as anyone not named Anderson Silva can claim at middleweight.
He didn’t win his divisional status in a cereal box OR talk his way into it — the difference between the talky Chael and the middling Chael is first and foremost that he’s winning fights now.
If anything, the issue here is just that the 185 lb. frame is officially where MMA devolves into rock-paper-scissors:
Michael Bisping has the skillset to beat Chael and probably also the skillset to get KTFO’d by Anderson or Vitor.
Chael Sonnen has the skillset to beat Anderson Silva, and get owned by Demian Maia or Rousimar Palhares. Probably Hendo too.
Literally everyone at MW has someone who can make them look bad.
LBo - January 30, 2012
^This
Steve W - January 30, 2012 via mobile
that sums it all up – nice Job
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
Rec'd
also, in before someone mentions how no one has ever made Silva look bad (lolz).
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Not legally, no.
Kid Kimura - January 30, 2012
Yep, if you look at MW for years now it has revolved around who can beat Anderson. If you ignored that question though, the title would most likely have switched hands multiple times due to how well everybody else matches up.
Empty Thoughts - January 30, 2012
I completely agree with everything in Lbo’ s post.
Hutchy - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Thats quite odd, I don’t sense that at all from your post above. Actually it looks like the complete opposite to me ?
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
What Maia?
That mediocre brazilian kickboxer who lost to Weidman? ;)
KGNLuc - January 30, 2012
.
IKiIIed007 - January 30, 2012
Rec'd for truth
warren305 - January 30, 2012
Watched the Bisping fight again.
Sonnen honestly looked drunk the whole time. He didn’t even look like he could stand up straight.
djfivenine - January 30, 2012
he was working the Weidman/Maia approach
Earl Montclair - January 30, 2012
He said he go tagged really hard the first round that he didn't even know where he was.
J_Maddux - January 30, 2012
Could the late change of opponents have anything to do with him not being dominate? Bisping is a much better striker than Munoz and presents much different obstacles.
Afrotikiman - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I wouldn't think so. It's not like Chael would have a different gameplan going in.
sun yue - January 30, 2012
Bisping is a TOUGH fight for Chael and due to his personality/character and being on the bad end of an all-time great high-light reel KO, people tend to underrate him.
ChicagoMMAFan - January 30, 2012
Not at all.
When he says he never lost a round. I think he means in rounds that went all the way through. Not when he lost the fight by submission.
J_Maddux - January 30, 2012
He's lost decisions.
sun yue - January 30, 2012
Just a correction as I’m pretty sure I’m right here, but not decisions. A single decision loss. Regardless though, he has also lost by TKO twice. A corner stoppage and a cut. Neither one of those screams you were winning the round.
I’m a huge Chael fan so not tossing that out there to discredit him. Just the facts how they are.
Empty Thoughts - January 30, 2012
You're right.
One decision and a draw. Both in Japan against Japanese fighters, so who knows how those were scored.
sun yue - January 30, 2012
Babalu fight ended in the second round.
Sugel Mendoza - January 30, 2012
I came here to say one thing...
but then I checked his record, and this is interesting. At the time of the Babalu fight, Sonnen was 14-6, since that fight, he’s gone 13-5…
Not that that makes him the same fighter, or necessarily points to a lack of development, but it’s interesting that he’s more or less performing at the same rate he always has (all be it against much tougher competition).
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Yeah the competition is what jumps out
Afrotikiman - January 30, 2012 via mobile
I also think Chael making a choice to be a full time MW after the 3rd Jeremy Horn was the tell-tale turning point of his career.Sense that move down Chael has lost to 3 MW’s only,and thats Filho a loss which he avenged and the other 2 being Maia and Anderson.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
3rd Jeremy Horn fight
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
"all be it"
albeit
just trying to help..
FiatJustitiaRuatCaelum - January 30, 2012
Ha
I know… not sure why i did that.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
haha this bugged me like 5 hrs ago and I was like must…not….be….THAT…..guy….
TheDreadedMarco - January 30, 2012
Sonnen is an old-school specialist in the mold of dan severn, not much standup, no real submission game, but is tough as nails, works incredibly hard, and has fantastic takedowns. he’s an old-school grinder, and good enough at that style to beat a number of top MWs. his TRT use does put a major “*” on his accomplishments, though.
thuggis - January 30, 2012
It is just me...
or that the tactic Bisping used, clinching against the wall, was just like A. Silva did against Okami?
burakkuburain - January 30, 2012
I love the fact that everyone is singing Bisping's praises now
before this fight Bisping was awful and had no business being in a cage with Sonnen, now all of a sudden he’s a brilliant well rounded fighter and a top middleweight.
Bisping should be fighting Silva, not Sonnen
Patrick Hughes - January 30, 2012
I agree,
only b/c I want to see a brutal highlight reel knockout.
If it is a competitive fight you are after, then Sonnen is a much more interesting matchup.
jhf884 - January 30, 2012
Chael won the fight dude. Bisping earned a lot of respect in this fight. Why is there a problem with that?
Earl Montclair - January 30, 2012
I scored it for Bisping. There’s nothing wrong with earning respect, but it’s the fact that he did nothing different to what he’s done in the past (i.e the good takedown defence and scrambles, good game planning, good kickboxing) but nobody seemed to want to recognise that before, they were content with posting gifs of him getting KOd by Henderson.
Patrick Hughes - January 30, 2012
He has been doing all those things against mid tier fighters and failing to deliver against every upper tier fighter he has faced (and Wanderlei Silva). This fight he stepped up to the plate and gave his best performance against top competition. Also,
Earl Montclair - January 30, 2012
brilliant
Patrick Hughes - January 30, 2012
Yamasaki is pulling Hendo off hoping he didn’t witness the first death in the octagon
Pat Tzu - January 30, 2012
WILL NEVER GET OLD. EVAR.
Kid Kimura - January 30, 2012
not only does it never get old, it also gets more brutal every time I see this gif.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
It is the Greatest One Punch Knockout of All Time, imo
warren305 - January 30, 2012
it's a great KO
but…
To be fair, Kelly wasn’t exactly out cold, but it won the fight.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
Meant in MMA, but even against some of boxing's best KOs
That Hendo overhand is beastly
warren305 - January 31, 2012
You scored it wrong.
Akemi Homura - January 30, 2012
no I didn’t
Patrick Hughes - January 31, 2012
Fight metric scored it for Chael
The first round Chael out landed Bisping in every category and scored two take downs. Obviously he won round 3. 2 rounds to 1. Pretty simple. People just hate chael so much that they are blinding themselves from what he does.
NEW-HAMPSHIRE - January 30, 2012
no.. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that everyone hated Bisping so much, Sonnen was the crowd favorite
And I’ve always thought try to score a round based on takedowns was too simplistic. What did Sonnen do with those takedowns in the 1st? Nothing. He was trying to hold on for dear life and Bisping still got up pretty quickly.
Jobumoplata - January 31, 2012
I mean a take down is a take down
and while he didnt really do anything with it, today’s MMA rules make them out to be a big deal. He outlanded him in every category and got 2 take downs. How can you not give round 1 to Chael?
NEW-HAMPSHIRE - February 2, 2012
the anderson fight is the basis for why people are paying attention to him
once he loses in a rematch his currency with the media and fans will be substantially reduced. after a loss, if he continues his schtick people will turn on him.
UncleMax - January 30, 2012 via Android app
After a loss?
As opposed to his previous win vs. Anderson?
skeebop - January 30, 2012
after a loss to anderson in the second fight.
UncleMax - January 30, 2012 via Android app
I understand...
I’m just saying the first loss didn’t slow him down, I’m not convinced the second will either.
In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised by Sonnen moving back to LHW if he loses again.
skeebop - January 30, 2012
I very well think fans will turn on him quick if he gets destroyed in the 2nd Silva fight.Like I said above now I see alot more Chael fans and MMA fans in general who did enjoy his rants getting more & more irritated with them and finding it quite old now.
Shocbomb - January 30, 2012
After Sonnen blasted through Stann and what he did to Silva for 4.5 rounds I think not.
Bisbing is a very underrated fighter and Sonnen went to battle with him and won. He was in his face the entire fight from bell to bell just like he says he does.
J_Maddux - January 30, 2012
oh yeah here we go
one non-impressive victory and we retroactively write off any major accomplishments a fighter may have had. i also especially liked the part where you admit that you’re reaching with the steroids and silva’s injury but give it credence anyway.
gangrene - January 30, 2012
Shouldn’t we also invalidate Wanderlei Silva’s wins as well? The guy looked like he came straight out of some mad scientists lab during his PRIDE run.
Fatal_Conceit - January 31, 2012
Pride in general is tainted, imo
The big stars probably fought some “worked” fights (looking at you Cro Cop, Wandy, Fedor),and I’d say a reasonably high percentage of the fighters were taking substances that would be banned today.
warren305 - January 31, 2012
Rampage himself said he was paid more to lose to Wandy
warren305 - January 31, 2012
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