Bloody Elbow

Tyron Woodley is actually flaming out as a prospect despite still not having lost a fight. His bout with Jordan Mein was almost unbearable to watch

Almost?? What part of that fight WAS bearable?

probably the few shots Woodley landed while standing. that last round seemed fucking eternal. i never thought i’d say this, but i’d rather see a Volkmann fight. at least he tries to pass guard or, you know, make something happen.

The thing that got to me about the Woodley fight

It looked like Tyron made a DELIBERATE attempt to not pass guard and not throw punches. At least Fitch throws light punches and keeps busy. Tyron would literally just sprawl out holding Mein’s arms and intentionally do nothing to advance.

dreamers_12345 - January 8, 2012 reply

Yep eventually the rules need to change to stop this shit.

It’s like basketball teams playing keepaway before the shot clock was implemented.

Rob Young - January 8, 2012 via mobile reply

In collegiate wrestling there is riding time

a clock starts as soon as a takedown is scored and if you end the match with one minute more time than your opponent then you are awarded a point at the end of the match. a similar set up could be a position advancement clock. once you take the fight to the ground/clinch/any other position that is not spectator friendly nor conducive to inflicting damage you have a set amount of time to improve your position. if it is not done, then you are stood up. I am not saying that there should be too much emphasis on making fights spectator friendly, but it should be at least moderately taken into consideration.

Andy Anderson - January 8, 2012 reply

You're basically suggesting a "pass clock" in the same vein as the NBA's shot clock

It’s not a bad idea, but I don’t like it because it will punish people that actively work to pass but are truly defeated by their opponents defense. Fights like that are still exciting to me. What Woodley did tonight was not, and I’m not sure how to counter it.

yellow cards for stalling

Maybe, but I'm not a proponent of taking a percentage of the purse from the fighter either

for guys like Woodley, I'm all for it.

But you can't make a rule for just Woodley

And putting the ref in charge of the fighters’ finances is not something I agree with on any level.

I say we do it anyway

WOODLEY RULE. SHIT TYRONE GET IT TOGETHER

OneFitchTwoFitchRedFitchBlueFitch - January 8, 2012 reply

I have an idea

the refs start being more proactive in standing up/separating people who are obviously stalling. They have the autonomy and usually the ref will settle into a rhythm of watching, instead of correcting the issue

Maybe judging that favors effective offense?

You're talking about completely rewriting the UR then.

I’m not saying that’s a bad idea, but it’s unrealistic as changes like that happen over a seriously long period of time

No, it's how the rules are already written and judges don't follow it.

Judges shall evaluate mixed martial arts techniques, such as effective striking, effective grappling, control of the fighting area, effective aggressiveness and defense. Evaluations shall be made in the order in which the techniques appear, giving the most weight in scoring to effective striking, effective grappling, control of the fighting area and effective aggressiveness and defense.

That's true

However, look at the fight with woodley. the most effective offense were his takedowns. They were the story of the fight. From there, Woodley completely neutralized Mein’s offense though he created none of his own, he still wins by having the only effective offensive.

He got outlanded with strikes

and was the opposite of aggressive. The “fuck you” score from one of the judges was absolutely justifiable under the unified rules.

You’re probably right, I had trouble concentrating on that fight. And I would love to see more judges score effective offense from bottom guard. I think I may be trained at this point to think it’s a foregone conclusion.

How’s that massage chair?

Fantastic. Treating me well while I made this:

Just saw it on twitter

Matt Roth is ruining MMA

lolz

that meme will be good for ages

Waking Up In Trainyards Never Die!!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - January 8, 2012 reply

I fuckin started it too.

T.C. Engel - January 8, 2012 reply

this was a very trainyard filled night

also, I approve

when i heard it was a split decision i was pissed already because of the Burrell decision earlier in the night and the incompetence of the ref standing them up in the third only when Mein was working for an actual submission. but when you put it like that, it’s kind of a good thing. he deserved the win since he was more dominant, but he just tried to slip by the whole way.

pdl is dead on

So, though I’d like some minor changes in the rules, it’s the way they’re enforced that should be changed.

My solution has always been that control should never be enough to win a fight ON ITS OWN. Control can be a key facilitator to implementing effective offense, but is not enough to demonstrate superiority by itself.

I don’t think Tyron’s offense was effective at all. All he did was shift the fight from the free-movement phase to the grappling phase. It was a really a stalemate on the ground with Woodley’s only advantages being “on top” and “landing one TD”.

To clarify, position alone can demonstrate superiority. Taking someone’s back, putting them in a legitimate submission attempt, side-mount or even passing to half shows “advancing” position. Taking someone down and sitting in full guard is neutral and not advancing position; just changing it (from standing).

My suggestions:

1. Don’t be afraid to score 10-10. I don’t think Woodley demonstrated a clear advantage because I don’t equate “being on top” with landing heavy strikes, passing guard and threatening with subs. If we start giving 10-10’s it will naturally inspire the fighters to go above and beyond to win the round with effective activity.

If we don’t, getting a TD and holding position with no effective offense will be a viable option to win a round and a fight.

2. This one requires a change in the rules, but it’s pretty simple: remove landing TDs from effective grappling and just keep them under control. Right now, landing a TD counts for effective grappling (1/2 of the #1 measure), control (#2 measure) and aggression (#3). That’s a ridiculous amount of power in the rules for simply forcing the grappling phase.

I say no to this in mma because it is not BJJ. You can win the fight in guard in mma, if they aren’t doing anything, stand them up, that’s it.

Phildo - January 8, 2012 reply

Tyron “Jon Fitch” Woodley

savik - January 8, 2012 reply

People comparing Woodley to Fitch have obviously never watched Jon Fitch fight.

Yup

Thank you! Fitch is far more talented and active.

Mr.Italiano - January 8, 2012 reply

Yet still just as boring!

Chin Check - January 8, 2012 reply

JUST BLEED!

I hate the UFC buyout of Strikeforce.

Strikeforce was a promotion where each fighter went for broke because they didn’t have the pressure of being cut and languishing in regional fights. Now, it is a point fighting contest so you can keep in line for an eventual Zuffa crossover. Why scrap when you can score and stay on a North American roster that has any meaning. T-Wood is the epitome of the kind of fighter I never want to see in MMA.
I’m happy, as macabre as it may sound, that ONE FC will allow knees to the heads of grounded opponents in a cage. That style of MMA will stop lay and pray dead in its tracks. I’m bummed in what Strikeforce has become today. Let’s see how the rest of the year plays out.

memitim - January 8, 2012 via mobile reply

I think knees to the head of grounded opponents is too much

I think it should not be allowed.

Granted, I believe that the definition of ‘grounded opponent’ should be changed.

That 3-point rule to me is a little bit much. A fighter who is up on two feet, but bent over with one hand touching the ground is considered a ‘downed’ opponent.

I think one knee on the ground should be the minimum requirement. I hate that front headlock type position where you see the guys intentionally touch their fingertips to the ground to avoid the knee…I don’t think that’s fair.

Either at least one knee should be touching the ground, OR your butt/back should be touching the ground…I mean, I don’t want to see a weird position where a guy is on his butt or back against the cage, and his knees aren’t technically touching the ground, and he is getting railed with knees.

You should be a able to knee the head of a grounded opponent who is driving for a takedown

And remove the hands-on-the-mat-to-avoid-knees-to-the-face bullshit.

I think a grounded opponent should be the same as the NFL rules

Anything, but your feet or your hands touch the ground then you’re “standing”

HaterSlayer - January 8, 2012 reply

agreed

I'll never understand hardcore MMA fans who don't want to allow knees on the ground.. very strange.

They make fights more entertaining

They reward active wrestlers who pass guard (like GSP) and punish lazy wrestlers.

The definition of a grounded fighter just needs to change

If he has BOTH knees down or his torso/waist/back is on the mat, he’s grounded. Anything else should be fair game.

This would allow upkicks from guard (in most cases) and blasting a sloppy takedown artist. Shooting a TD, getting it stuffed and being in front of a standing opponent on one knee is an extremely vulnerable position, but the rules actually make that a more protected position than most others.

Why not just add knees to the head of a grounded opponent?

It turns north south and side mount into more viable positions and you can blast a wrestler off a sprawl.

John Danaher's Hair - January 8, 2012 reply

I think upkicks should be allowed 100% of the time

Regardless if the opponent has 2 knees on the ground. If you’re in a dominate position then you should be able to prevent that. The rules are basically setting it up for the fighter in dominate position to continue being dominate. Not allowing the fighter on the other end every tool to change that sucks.

Anderson/ Okami 1 was a perfect example of this. Okami had dominate position but he left too much room for Anderson and he blasted him for it.

The 3-point rule is silly. You should be on your butt, back, shoulders, hips, side or knee to be downed. Even if you have both feet and hands down I don’t think you should be “down”.

I’m perfectly OK with knees to a downed opponent too.

Eff if, bring back PRIDE rules!

soilworker - January 8, 2012 reply

puh-leeze.

Woodley was a bore prior to Zuffa and he’ll be one long after SF is gone. Tyron “Shamar Bailey” Woodley should be his new nickname. You can blame Zuffa for lots of things, but blaming them for boring SF fights is going way far, especially now that they seem to have made it pretty clear that no one currently under contract will be going to the UFC, and you know what? If you can bring eyeballs and excitement to a broadcast rather than an impressive record, that would give a better chance to get to the UFC if that becomes an option. You think that Joe Silva is drafting guys into the UFC that fight like that? Doubt it. They have enough of those guys.

Because Tyron Woodley was so exciting before the UFC buyout?

SSreporters - January 8, 2012 reply

That is a complete over- dramatization

Woodley has never been the kind of fighter to go for broke against a dangerous striker/ guard player. Saffiedine gutted out 2 rounds with a broken arm, and I thought that was a good fight. Was King Mo “point fighting” when he smashed Larkin?

ElliotMatheny - January 9, 2012 reply

That Mein/Woodley fight

was fucking torture to watch, especially since I threw down some money on Mein. It sort of reminded me of Mo/Mousasi, where Mein (like Mousasi) was actually getting the better of the striking off his back somehow. I look forward to Woodley facing someone who can stuff his shots and knock his ass out.

Ak.Death - January 8, 2012 reply

you poor bastard

nothing like seeing the guy you’re money’s on lying there helpless

Cunny - January 9, 2012 reply

I'll also add

Just found out @tarecfighter fought last two rounds with broken arm. Stinson broke his arm in first and Tarec kept going.

Already have a post up here and HKL

Tyron Teddy Bear Woodley

That should be Tyron’s new nickname because he puts people to sleep.

I end up pissed off after watching these post-zuffa Strikeforce cards.

Our Bovine Public - January 8, 2012 reply

Mo comin yo!

DamnSevern - January 8, 2012 reply

Can’t rec enough

the wire reference is insta-rec

Perhaps Woodley’s decision to open his own gym instead of seeking out the best coaches / sparring partners / training camps is stalling his progression as a fighter. I know that not everyone can just uproot and take up residence at Jackson’s, but it doesn’t seem like Woodley’s is developing at all. He’s about as good as he was 2 or 3 years ago. He could have spent that time evolving.

mburtoni - January 8, 2012 reply

Yikes!

This version of Strikeforce looks like its gonna get old very fast. With Strikeforce no longer it’s own company and no longer trying to acquire great fighters it look like most fights are gonna fall into 1 of 3 categories

MISUSE – As Brent pointed out the lack of depth will probably lead to more Keith Jardine like situations where a fighter who has no business being in a title match gets one or something along those lines.

FLAME OUT – In an effort to create possible new contenders, prospects are rushed into matches that they have no business doing in. Example – Mo/Larkin, Mousasi/OSP.

RECYCLE – With no new guys brought in it’s the same 3 or 4 guys in a division fighting back and forth. Example – LHW – Mo, Mousasi, and Feijao, MW – Rockhold, Jacare, Kennedy, and Lawler

bigdmmafan - January 8, 2012 reply

Man at first I was like meh it was a decent strikeforce show I guess it shouldn't close NO F it kill it with Fire and absorb it

I would of been fine if Jardine Rockhold had happened on the main card of a SF card or even the main event of a Challangers card but as the ME and for a title NO.

Man Woodley i’m over him he might beat Saffadine again in a rematch but man I love me some Jon Fitch and he advances position and strikes Woodley dose what trolls think Fitch dose.

MaZZacare - January 8, 2012 reply

Is Woodley even a fighter?

I don’t mean is he a fighter in the same way that people were questioning if Brock Lesnar was a real fighter. I mean, can what Woodley does inside the cage even be considered fighting? I know that technically, it is, but it doesn’t look like it at all. There has to be some urgency and at least some minor hint of violence for it to be considered a fight. What Woodley does is exploit of a set of rules that are favorable to his extremely boring style.

Yep, the final evolutionary stage of gaming the unified rules to win without fighting has arrived

and its name is Tyron Woodley.

The worst part about the fight was Woodley wasn’t even trying to improve his position. It didn’t even look like he was trying to give any damage.

Damn, they need to match him up with a good wrestler next time or we’re going to see the same results.

milliondollardreams - January 8, 2012 reply

Woodley had dozens of oppurtinities to pass Meins gaurd in that fight, but he didn't take it

It pissed me off every time he let a good opportunity pass him by. T-Wood has superior ground skills compared to Mein, there’s no denying that, but why can’t he even attempt to obtain full mount at least once or twice, especially when his current strategy wasn’t helping him do much damage. He should be ashamed of such a bad performance.

He needs to watch tape on guys like Ben Henderson, Cain Velazquez, Mark Munoz, Jon Jones, and Chael Sonnen from the Stann fight to learn to get the most out of his ground skills.

amendamatrix - January 8, 2012 reply

I think that Woodley himself just sells himself way too short or something. There were opportunities to pin Mein against the cage, posture up, and rain down ground n pound, or he could have passed guard. In the standup, he hit a good overhand right on Mein. It seems like he is capable of good offense and seems pretty athletic, but totally forsakes it. I could just be totally off though, and maybe he is just intentionally lay n praying.

chrisbboy82 - January 8, 2012 reply

Strikeforce should = WWE NXT

I hate to bring a wrestling example but the new look of strikeforce extreme and strikeforce gave me the idea that Strikeforce should become the WWE NXT to the UFC fuel/fx and eventually PPV cards.

Strikeforce should only be used where prospects fight who are still cutting teeth inside the realm of pro mma. Keeping fighters who simply aren’t ready for the bigger stages and bigger paychecks. Prospects,TUF alum, over the hill fighters to provide marquee w’s etc.

This also protects fighters since they will have the zuffa insurance the whole 9 and not have to deal with shady promotions or health hazzards.

Just a quick thought

But is that something that Showtime will be interested in?

Apparently not

Since they were pretty keen about Strikeforce fighters staying as Strikeforce fighters in this new deal.

Chris WhiteDynamite Bielanski - January 8, 2012 reply

Zuffa should...

throw Strikeforce a bone and do a light heavyweight / lightweight TUF….the winners still get a UFC contract but the instead of absorbing all the other guys into UFC undercards they should throw some of them into Strikeforce…Strikeforce needs fresh meat

I don't "get" 2012 Strikeforce.

Why did they raid Strikeforce if they’re now going to lock top flight talent to the promotion? Why are they absorbing the HW division for that same reason? What is this promotion supposed to be? A top flight promotion? A feeder league? What did the fighters stuck in Strikeforce do to deserve being stuck in B league hell fighting lower class talent?

It certainly felt like a lower class card, moved from SF’s base areas to a foreign area for cost saving, but with top flight competition against lower competition due to being stuck in this promotion.

Legit can someone explain to me what Strikeforce is and what the goal is? I just don’t get it.

Hawk52 - January 8, 2012 reply

And I realize I said “Top flight” about fifty times.

Hawk52 - January 8, 2012 reply

Ugly fight or not, winning IS still the only thing that matters. Sorry Brent.

But if you win like that, you wont sniff the title. And eventually, this is what happens

That was so beautiful

I so wish Fitch would've started pitter-pattering Maz with some shots.

T.C. Engel - January 8, 2012 reply

rec for you good sir

benten20 - January 8, 2012 reply

I don’t know…..looks like he grabbed side control on Maz pretty easily. Maz needs to start training at a real MMA gym.

Snake_Pliskan - January 8, 2012 reply

I disagree.

Maz did get into butterfly guard right away.

Harley - January 8, 2012 reply

agreed

fitch countered for top control quickly and Maz got to the butterfly nicely

Haha

How funny would it have been if Mazz got rubber guard and went all Shinya Aoki right there?

Answer: this funny (holds hands a considerable distance apart).

maz was looking for the sweep when Fitch stood him up, and the world has come to a close

Unless you can pull that 'nobody is denied a title shot after 8 straight wins' rule

That’s a long investment to try and make though.

’I’m going to be boring and force myself to win 8 straight to get the shot’

’I’ll fight exciting, take more damage, probably lose more and likely get more exposure, promotion, bonuses, and bigger paychecks in return’

Guys like Nate Diaz and Chris Lytle were pretty much locked for never being cut…all the while they’ve been raking in bonuses. Joe Lauzon is another example…but if Jon Fitch drops 3 in a row, or loses 4 of 5…he’ll very likely be sent packing.

It truly would not shock me if Jon got shitcanned after losing 2 in a row

It would surprise me

It would also surprise me if he lost 2 in a row. Fitch is a legitimate top talent at WW and that’s recognized throughout the MMA world. For the UFC to dispose of him and hand him over to Bellator would be ridiculous.

The few reasons they might I consider to be these

1) he has kind of been a pain in the ass before (likeness rights-gate, AKA teammate fighting mentality etc)
2) his notoriously boring style.
3) if you dont want to give him a title shot after a long list of victories then why bother with him? he is just shutting down other fighters that would provide more entertaining top tier match ups?

I dont agree with all this I am just toshing it out there

I can see exactly this

for those reasons. I wouldn’t even be mad if it happened, too

Toshing?

Leave Daniel out of this!

He's also 33

Had a TON of grinding fights in a long career…was pretty viciously knocked out early in his career, took a TON of punishment from GSP, was rocked bad by Pierce, and was just knocked out pretty viciously again.

He’s at the point where he is only going to be on the decline….when he is this age with this long a career…an insta-KO does not bode well for the future.

He’d beat Hendricks in a rematch. Johny has no reason to give it to him, but he’s the better fighter.

or he might get dangadadanged again

As an atheist jew who stood up on his bar stool and yelled SWEET JESUS when Hendricks KO’d him the first time in a packed 200+ TGiFridays, I sure hope it happens again

Everyone gets caught

Even GSP and Anderson.

sure

i’ll still praise tim tebow if/when it happens again

Let's see how Fitch rebounds before we say he 'got caught'

If he wins the title and goes on another crazy streak…fine, he was caught.

If he starts a skid peppered with losses, then he was slipping and simply got tagged.

I’m sure plenty of people said Chuck just ‘got caught’ against Rampage…but Chuck didn’t rise back from that loss and prove that he was still the best….he went on a bad streak that led to his retirement.

You get knocked out in 12 seconds

You got caught.

You get knocked out in 12 seconds
You got ~~caught~~ knocked out.

MMAussie - January 8, 2012 reply

I was going to argue Silva never got caught

But he was on the end of the submission of the century.

Fitch didn't get caught...

He had his hands down and applied no head movement against someone he should have known was a heavy hitter. Dan Hardy got caught when he fought Carlos Condit, but Jon Fitch just didn’t protect himself well in the fight

amendamatrix - January 8, 2012 reply

bonus points for dangadadanged. i yelled ‘naked fucking Christ’ in a strip club when Machida KO’d Couture in April, but your story takes the cake.

I'm really not a fan of the 'He lost but he is still better' thing

I mean…there is a reason that these guys actually have the fight.

Heard it when Fedor lost to Hendo, when Guillard lost to Lauzon…I mean, it seems like every time there is a major upset it’s ‘Oh well, they are still ACTUALLY better’ as if the loss happened in some fantasy world.

Upsets happen…deal with it.

And I’m not targeting you directly…just that kind of mindset in general…not too crazy about it.

Understandable

It depends on how the fight goes

If the fight is fairly even and then one person gets KO’d or subbed then you can say the underdog may be the better fighter. However you can’t really extrapolate anything from a guy getting KO’d in 12 seconds. Especially when he has a resume like Jon Fitch.

HaterSlayer - January 8, 2012 reply

You have to use eyes when you watch the fight no matter how long it is.

Jon Fitch lost legitimately based of poor defense in the standup. This doesn’t mean he is an overall inferior fighter, but I don’t know how you could say with confidence “9 times out of ten, Fitch wins that fight”. Johnny Hendricks has good pure wrestling and knockout power unlike most of Fitch’s opponents since 2008, so I really think people should hold back on rationalizing the loss, and look at what Fitch should have done to prevent it in the first place.

I think Cerrone is a much better fighter than the one who fought Nate Diaz at 141, but I’m not going to say that he would beat Nate 9/10 in a rematch, because that would be taking away from Nate’s victory.

amendamatrix - January 8, 2012 reply

Styles make fights hoes

Totally agree with you

Nobody thinks Dennis Hallman is a better fighter than Matt Hughes

But some people will just kick your fucking ass regardless of expectations

John Danaher's Hair - January 8, 2012 reply

Also...

an Askren-Fitch fight would usher in the End of Days.

Yep, no kidding

I mean, he was the #2 guy because he never lost after becoming champion…I said for a while that I don’t think he was still that good…but due to rankings logistics where you can’t lose your ranking unless you lose…

He stayed at #2 even though there were guys a lot better than Saunders on short notice and Alves after over a year off that COULD have beaten him.

Similar to Fedor…He was still #1 on a technicality…but I felt like there were guys ranked lower than him, whom he couldn’t fight, that would beat him.

So, ANYWAY, he’s #2 and he just lost to #17/#18(can’t remember off the top)

He’ll likely fall into the bottom half of the top 10 as Hendricks enters the top 10. If he gets another similar matchup…a guy who is in the bottom half of the top 25 and he loses again, then his rank will fall pretty sharply…he’ll be top 15 at best. I could see him getting cut.

MAYBE give him one more chance.

explain jim miller not getting a shot after his win streak (before the bendo loss)

he wasnt even considered until even he started asking for a title shot. g-sot as well before the siver loss.

benten20 - January 8, 2012 reply

I think Miller-Bendo would have been a title eliminator for Miller only

And Sotty was just being shoved on the next Australian card (IIRC) with the only available credible opponent

He would have got a shot from that fight or the next

People thought taking Siver down wouldn’t be a big deal and Sotty would snap him like a twig

But remember these were tricky times when the title was tied up due to rematches and injuries

LW had contenders out the ass with no available shots at the title

Long time coming...

Couldnt have happened to a better bloke, Have fun on the prelims fighting whoever DFW wants to cut next lol

Chin Check - January 8, 2012 reply

The moment when Fish finally comes to and realises what's going on is wonderful

John Danaher's Hair - January 8, 2012 reply

I LOVE double-underhooks-Maz!

how are there still seven hundred comments whining about his title shot after this?

Phildo - January 8, 2012 reply

yeah, but it completely negates what has been the most attractive feature of SF as a promoter

And that’s exciting fights. So what do they do with Woodley? They can limit how often he fights by only giving him annual title defenses.

They continue to promote him. If he continues to be boring, then he becomes the guy people love to hate and watch to see if he gets his ass kicked (ala the gif above). Winning is the only thing that matters. Bottom line. Boring fights don’t let you change your mind about that.

dude...

no one was paying in the hopes that Fitch lost.

You’d be surprised. I know two people that did exactly that. They didn’t even care about Lesnar.

I still have to think that is a negligible percent of the audience. I can understand people buying to see a Tito or Koschek get beat, but I can’t believe there’s a significant percentage of PPV buyers footing the bill for a $60 PPV just to see Fitch lose.

Right, I’m not saying that a ton of fans are doing it. But it’s there. The basic point is that while the sport is a mix of sport and entertainment, you can’t completely ignore the sporting side of things when a guy isn’t super exciting. In every sport, in every facet of life, the important thing is winning. It’s not about how you do it. It’s that you do it.

You’ve got a point, but Woodley is never going to become the #2 in the division fighting the Mein’s of MMA. That makes him incredibly more cuttable from any organization, whenever that loss does come.

And honeslty I didn’t have a huge problem with him until he circled back into guard when he had a perfect opportunity to pass. That is by no means offense and being on top in guard shouldn’t earn him a victory.

If it doesn’t come…then it’s not a problem. : )

The only difference with MMA

Is that other sports have a set schedule of playing the other teams and then the playoffs. Their fate is almost entirely dictated by winning or losing.

In MMA, matchmaking determines the pathway of fighters and matchmaking is quite distinctly affected by what the fans want to see and how exciting a fighter is.

But to do that, don’t you need opponents who these people can get behind? I mean, I can see people shelling out money hoping to see GSP to handle Kos or Henderson shut up Bisping. But I can’t imagine that there are people out there who know enough about mma to hate someone like Woodley while thinking that someone like Bobby Voelker or Mein in a rematch is going to have much success.

Jeffigatame - January 8, 2012 reply

The only reasons I ever watched a Fitch fight

1. I wanted to see him lose
2. He’s on the main card
3. I shelled out for the main card

Brent has it

Nobody buys a PPV for Fitch. And nobody is going to subscribe to SHO for Woodley.

Actually I have bought PPV cards because Fitch is on them… I love watching him take his opponents soul. I am in the extreme minority though

Do you also cut yourself?

No I am not an idiot who sees a guy beat the shit out of a guy and make him want to quit and think it s LnP

I never mind a fighter who actively looks to do damage. It’s getting a takedown and waiting on the clock to count down that I hate.

I hate that as well, I just dont think that is Fitch. I just especially remember the Saunders fight were Saunders basically just looked like he wanted to quit. Fitch grinds ppl into mentally checking out IMO… I also like ball control offenses and strong defenses in football. So I am into "boring: aspects of sports

The Saunders fight was weird

Because Saunders was stalling, not the other way around.

Ha, I'm that guy too,

I loved watching the grinding Spurs and 04-06 Pistons.

sun yue - January 8, 2012 reply

I loved the 'boring' Spurs!

lmaginary Enemy - January 8, 2012 reply

I love run and gun,

and the Mavs Nellie ball made me a huge Mavs/Dirk/Nash fan, but it takes a really special team to carry out some soul-sapping sub 90 defense. And people seemed to forget that with Manu, Duncan and Parker they could still run with the best of them.

sun yue - January 8, 2012 reply

those teams were ratings poison, but those teams were great cohesive units that consistently played some of the best defense we’ve seen in the last 3 decades.

It’s really not though. Jon Fitch made $60,000 to show and couldn’t get another title shot despite years as the #2 welterweight in the world because he wasn’t an attractive fighter for the UFC. Chris Leben makes like $46,000 to show and is in no way nearly as relevant as Fitch. But he’s “fun to watch.” Chris Lytle made more for his last fight than Jon Fitch (although Lytle’s included a win bonus that Fitch didn’t get because he lost).

What Woodley is doing is not going to make him a lot of money and it’s not going to put him in a position to get major shots on a stage bigger than Strikeforce if the promotion goes under.

A win is not all that matters.

You win, you can’t get cut. In terms of a career as a fighter, it’s absolutely all that matters.

The Antonio McKee argument will never fly with me. He still got his shot the with the UFC. Why? Cuz he won and won and won. And when he got to the UFC, he lost and got cut. If he won, and continued to win…guess where he’d still be working? Jacob Volkmann has won five fights in a row at LW. Boring as shit. Weird motherfucker. Don’t matter. He continues to take home checks because he continues to win.

I understand the business side of the sport. But winning will always be the most important thing in the sport.

I still thinks that different where a promotion like SF with very limited fight slots can keep you to only fighting once a year

It’s not the same SF. They’re promoting less divisions now, and they have less guys under contract. A guy will only fight once a year if he gets hurt. There are enough spots for guys to fight 3 time a year, easy. Tyron Woodley will fight 3 times this year if he doesn’t get hurt. And if he keeps winning, nothing can stop him from doing that. Boring or not.

Why would they put Woodley in 3 fights a year when they have Robbie Lawlor's that will go out and put on fights people want to see?

Because Robbie will get three fights a year too.

You’re ignoring my point deliberately. There’s no reason for them to put a fighter like Woodley has become on the main card 3 times a year, when he doesn’t bring in SHO subscribers. It makes more sense for Showtime to keep him off of cards if he makes people change the channel.

I’m not ignoring your point. I’m saying that Woodley has earned his spot by winning, and there HAS to be room on the card for a guy that continues to win. I know what you’re saying about business, but the sport will always begrudging accept people like Woodley that continue to win. They have no choice. It has to be about the sport at some level. You can sell cards and subscriptions by working around the less-exciting guys. But if they earned their spot (and there’s way less competition for spots in general anyway), promotions will make it work. They have to.

*begrudgingly

In the UFC, I'd totally agree with you

But, in Strikeforce, who only has 8 events a year and relies totally on having fights that people want to see, I don’t see him enjoying the same success. It would be very easy for a matchmaker to limit his exposure purely based on the fact that people change the channel when he fights.

It’s Showtime. It doesn’t matter if they change the channel. They’ve already paid for the subscription. : )

And what about the people on the free previews tonight, who switched the channel after 7 minutes of his stalling?

If seven minutes of stalling was their decision between ordering and not ordering…well, we’re back up to the same numbers as my Fitch example above. Not a ton are doing it, but it’s there. The point is that you build cards like you promote a circus. Some people like the trapeze act, some come for the elephants. Some come for the cotton candy. You’ll never please everyone, but you have 5 fights to try and appeal to the widest demographic possible. And some, SOME people just tune in to see the best guys in the sport. If you never lose, you’re one of the best guys in the sport, no matter how you get that W.

Strikefroce needs to maximize the limited amount of exposure they have. Putting Woodley as he performed tonight on almost half of their cards doesn’t do that.

This loops back to the start – you can’t deny a winner his props because he’s boring. It’s still a sport. You can work around it, but you can’t deny him his spot.

As a promoter looking to maximize my profits

I can definitely deny a boring fighter 3 fights a year.
And it’d be easy in divisions as thin as Strikeforce’s welterweight division.

Look at the situation now, where the most likely contender, Saffeidine, is injured. The fight for the vacant title can easily be delayed until Tarec is ready to fight, instead of finding a replacement.

After that, you put on a tournament to determine the next contender, which takes as much time as you want it to.

As a matchmaker, I would have no problem making reasonable excuses to have Woodley defend his title only once a year and still have plenty of matches to fill out cards for Sf.

The competition for spots isn’t what it was before.

I'm not sure what point you're making here, Beer Monster

Yeah, but Volkmann is 5-0 as a LW in UFC, and is still at least 3-4 wins away from even sniffing a title shot, and will probably be cut the 1st time he loses.

dpk875 - January 8, 2012 reply

Goalposts. You move them.

Nobody is arguing against the notion that “winning is the most important thing in the sport”. What we are arguing against is the easily disprovable notion that “winning is all that matters.”

Guys like Volkman, Fitch and Woodley can grind out careers in the sport, but their unwillingness, or inability to evolve their game to stop opponents carries a very real career
and economic cost.

Dave Strummer - January 8, 2012 via mobile reply

Another way of spinning that

Is saying “being boring is the absolute worst way to win”.

I agree with Brent saying that “all wins are not created equal” and this was probably more detrimental to Woodley’s career than any other win.

Most important maybe. You're saying its "all that matters"

Clearly that isn’t the case. There are countless examples to refute it.

big matt - January 8, 2012 reply

Tyron Teddy Bear Woodley...

should not get a title shot from that dry humpfest performance!

Paging Johnny Hendricks!!!

Somebody make up a Bat-Signal but with a beard and that can be our call sign for him.

bigdmmafan - January 8, 2012 reply

How amazing would that be?

Just imagine Hendricks KOing boring LnPers in every possible weight class.

Its going to suck so bad if Tyron Teddy Bear Woodley becomes champion.

I think the only logical thing to do is a rematch of Cormier vs. Lawal. Here is their first fight

Is that a Stone Cold Stunner?

STONE COLD STONE COLD STONE COLD!!!!

Luke thomas hates you

Ace crusher. Austin’s a thief.

was it the Ace Crusher before it was the Diamond Cutter

?

Yes.

huh.

And knowledge is power!!

and knowing is half the battle

Robust23 - January 8, 2012 reply

Diamond Cutter /= Stunner

Chris Barton - January 8, 2012 reply

Also known as a ColdStone Stunner

/CHIKARA’d

BVandDietPepsi - January 8, 2012 reply

And a diamond cutter is actually a different move anyway.

reply fail

Karl Malone can do a sweet diamond cutter

See, he drops to the floor and slams his face on there, like DDP did. A stunner/crusher sees a guy drop to his knees and drive the face into your shoulder.

/pro wrestling nerd stuff

Anybody got a Jay Leno gif from WCW? Just for funsies?

i found a picture of him trying to kiss Teh Hulkster

I hope he got the kiss

I mean, who wouldn’t want a kiss from Thunder Lips?

nice butt on the left

Thank you

I work out.l

Ha!

why are you staring at that butt?

With that first class priority package staring you in the face?

james b - January 8, 2012 reply

jay leno?

sorry, stoned and confused

http://guy.com/2011/09/30/anatomy-of-a-wrestling-hold-cutters/

YOU FAIL BURKE

Chris Barton - January 8, 2012 reply

No

Ace Crusher is FAR FAR more Diamond Cutter/RKO than a Stunner.

Chris Barton - January 8, 2012 reply

Yo man Rockhold needs to fight Kennedy and run it back with Jacare before callin out UFC guys. Clean your division out first then call em out

Robust23 - January 8, 2012 reply

Why exactly does he need to fight Jacare again?

that’s just my opinion cause I had it for Jacare

Robust23 - January 8, 2012 reply

fair enough

Rockhold should call out whoever the eff he can

He may not get the fight, but he gets the attention and good for him.

Its not even like he is saying he is the best, it is more like he is asking for a chance to fight the best to see if he can make it. I respect him for wanting better competition.

Nothing said about the ridicules stand up in the Mo fight?

Or the two late stoppages?

J_Maddux - January 8, 2012 reply

*Stand up by the ref

J_Maddux - January 8, 2012 reply

well, obviously no one gives a shit about fighters almost getting killed

seriously some of the worst refereeing I have seen in a while and please can we jump of the herb dean beeing the best in the business bandwagon, he fucked up quite alot lately

feiwongfu - January 8, 2012 reply

At least Mazzagatti was their to show how to make a good stoppage.

Seeing that Amagov had had enough.

For the second event running Mazzagatti has been the best referee of the night. I never thought I’d be saying that.

Bill P. - January 8, 2012 reply

mazzagatti for president, lol

it’s true though, mazzagatti is on a roll

feiwongfu - January 8, 2012 reply

Yeah that stand-up in the Mo fight was horrible, he was doing good work and hitting him with hard shots. Winslow is not a very good referee.

They could have needed some more of those stand-ups in the Woodley fight, though. And yellow cards..

The T-Wood x Mein stand up was almost worse

I only like referee interventions in worst-case scenarios. I thought the ref should have jumped in earlier, but I noticed when he was reffing a fight earlier in the night that he was reluctant to intervene. I respected that and thought, “At least this guy is being consistent” in the Mein-Woodley fight.

Then, when he finally does decide to jump in, he does it when Mein was angling for an armlock. I’m not saying he was going to sub him but, fuck … there were a ton of action-less lulls before that.

Haha, yeah, I had forgotten about that one. Agreed, pretty damn horrible. At the one moment the bottom guy actually starts to get something going, they stand them up. Amazing.

Strikeforce fighters- Where do I go from here?
Dana- You’re there.

Huggy Bear - January 8, 2012 reply

Dana and Zuffa need to come out and make a statement...

on if there going to bring ufc fighters to strikeforce.

Isn't the answer to that painfully obvious?

Hell no.

UncleMax - January 8, 2012 reply

Okay so say you're in Dana's shoes right now

Would you consider sending UFC fighters to do battle with the lads at Strikeforce? What are the potential upsides / downsides?

Pyrgz Krum - January 8, 2012 reply

I'd send Jake Ellenberger to fuck up Tyron Woodley.

Downside is for Showtime when he loses and I bring Ellenberger back into the UFC after his mission is complete.

when T-Wood loses that is.

Woodley is an Undefeated, and Undisputed loser of Strikeforce

The worst part about Woodley is the fact that he gasses out, he sits their and muscles Mein down for 3 rounds and talks how must he has been working on his striking. At least Fitch is conditioned and hits his opponent. Woodley looked like a sack of crap out there. He doesn’t deserve a title, take a page out of Sonnen’s book even Askren looks more busy when he is on top. Woodley should fight for the title, just so he can gas in the 3rd and have a nice TKO, if that Daley fight when into the 4th he would have been crushed.

Mrh347 - January 8, 2012 reply

So Brent

Do you still think that Tyrone Woodley would have took the belt from Diaz?

I sure as hell do.

Maybe T-Wood fades a bit in rounds 4 and 5 and get’s TKO’d from the Stockton slap, but I doubt it.

Every time Woodley backs into the cage (which he does a lot) he would eat three or so punches. Even if he does get Diaz down I’m sure Diaz can sweep and scramble. Diaz has never been held down consistently throughout his career, and Woodley gasses much quicker.

I fail to see how that fight doesn’t end poorly for Woodley.

Yep, probably.

Really?

I think the further that fight goes the more chance Woodley gets subbed or TKO’d. I wouldn’t be surprised if Diaz can sprawl late in the fight and take his back.

Also

Legalize knees to the head of a grounded opponent. It rewards passing guard and punishes lazy wrestlers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kse0MG5n9wI

What a mess.

vivero - January 8, 2012 via mobile reply

I've gotten to the point where it is hard to question the vision of Dana, Lorenzo, and everyone else at Zuffa, but

Unless there is something I’m missing about there long term plan they have really screwed up the entire Strikeforce acquisition. I personally don’t care about Rockhold, Melendez, Mo, ect… they all chose at some point to sign a contract with Strikeforce when they could have signed with UFC, but now Zuffa has control over their destinies and they are keeping some of the best fighters in the world from fighting the best, and that pisses me off as a fan. For years Dana has promised that UFC would always make the best fights that it can, and now they are not delivering in some cases.

dpk875 - January 8, 2012 reply

Here's a video of their plan.

MicahtheCynic - January 8, 2012 reply

Srikeforce was shocking last night

Everyone just seemed to be going through the motions. The commentary was especially lazy, Frank and Pat were just throwing out lazy cliches without any real insight and Mauro sounded way too snarky, I think they know Strikeforece is spiralling and they’re just their to pick up there cheques.

The crowd was dead and the fights were boring. I even felt guilty for getting a bit excited when in the main event, we saw a top ten prospect beat up a has-been. A match that should never have been made, let alone be the main event. And finally, what is the biggest thing on Strikeforce’s horizon? A woman’s match that does not even involve Gina Carrano. What the hell Dana!?

Bill P. - January 8, 2012 reply

One highlight of the card was Mauro interviewing Dana

Even though it lacked spit volume compared to a Rogan-White screamfest-with-neck-veins-bulgin’-and-foreheads-sweatin’ it made up for it in terms of pure, undiluted bullshit.

Dana is psyched for Tate-Rousey? Strikeforce will be around for a long time to come? “Anything can happen in MMA” re: Jardine being allowed to fight for a title?

Jardine getting a title shot truly is an example of “a win is a win,” because his only two wins in his last eight fights before last night came in something called “Fresquez Productions” and something else called “Nemesis Fighting: MMA Global Invasion.” Those were enough, because they were wins, and that’s all that matters sometimes.

( . Y . ) - January 8, 2012 reply

Yeah I never want to see that again

One hyped up nerdy bald guy shouting into the mic is ok, when standing next to Joe Rogan. But when you’ve got two hyped up nerdy bald guys shouting into mics it’s really not pretty.

Plus, what’s with all the Strikeforce guys getting little digs in about their former guys like Overeem and Diaz winning in the UFC? Mauro just could not help himself. Don’t they realise that it’s over and they are owned by the UFC now? Any bragging rights they mght have been able to lay claim to, have gone out the window.

Bill P. - January 8, 2012 reply

Dana’s body language to me didn’t indicate that he was that excited for Strikeforce.

chrisbboy82 - January 8, 2012 reply

Yeah, he didn’t even smile once I think. It was pretty depressing actually.

That pic of Coker defines the new Strikeforce

Just woke up didn’t tuck shirt in been wearing it 3 days why am I here.

UncleMax - January 8, 2012 reply

haha

Yeah, the times when Helwani interviewed Coker and Coker was proud to pull something off like the HW GP, those days are over.

killphil - January 8, 2012 reply

What does it mean when you say Rockhold has “a lot of upside”?

thirdparty - January 8, 2012 reply

The perception that he hasn't reached his ceiling yet

He seems to be improving in many of the facets of MMA and doesn’t appear to have reached his full potential yet.

Right. Think of it like a video game…he’s still got some leveling up to do, he isn’t maxed out.

Glad to see I’m not the only one who’s getting sick and tired of Woodley. What a fucking nightmare for Strikeforce, ending up with this guy as champion! Horrible. If you are going to play wrestling and lay in someones guard, at least posture the fuck up and hit him with some hard shots, ala King Mo. Or you look to pass that guard. Not just hold him down and not do anything! GOD! SO ANNOYING! What a jackass. If I was Coker I would rather cut this guy then be dragged down by having him as champion. Really poor choice on their part to promote this guy.

Overall very poor show for being Strikeforce, lots of mismatches and sad performances. I used to love their shows back before Zuffa destroyed them, but now it’s not that great anymore. They need to step their game up, somehow.. this isn’t really working.

I was tired of him after the first fight I saw him in

vs Saffedine

Fuck that fight

and its mother

Yeah I’m with you, I’ve pretty much disliked him from day one, whenever that was. The hate is getting stronger and stronger… grrr.

And he should either learn to spell Tyrone properly or should switch to Tryon so he could have a cool nickname, such as Tryon “Dem Shoes” Woodley. He’d be more popular, I bet.

( . Y . ) - January 8, 2012 reply

Haha! Good suggestion.