Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.
This is a guest editorial by Jonathan Tweedale, Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission.
Nick Diaz's recent post-fight positive test after UFC 143 for marijuana has caused many fight enthusiasts to ask: "Why do they test for marijuana anyway?"
The answer to that question, along with a review of Nevada's applicable regulatory provision, suggests that there is no basis for disciplinary sanction of Mr. Diaz unless he administered or used marijuana immediately prior to or within several hours in advance of his fight.
Cannabinoids as Prohibited Substances
Cannabinoids are prohibited substances for fighters licensed in Nevada by virtue of NAC 467.850(2)(f), which incorporates by reference all prohibited substances on the current Prohibited List published by the World Anti-Doping Agency ("WADA").
More On Nick Diaz
In Defense of Diaz's Weed Habit | Diaz Is to Blame, But So Are Meaningless Marijuana Tests | Diaz Should Be Released By The UFC | Diaz' Drug Test Failure Was Inevitable |White: 'I Am Beyond Disappointed' | Fighters React to Diaz's Positive Drug Test | Nick Diaz Tests Positive For Marijuana
Cannabinoids - specifically, natural (e.g. cannabis, hashish, marijuana) and synthetic delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) as well as cannabimimetics - are included on WADA's Prohibited List. The status of cannabinoids as either legal or illegal under applicable criminal law - or, e.g., ‘legal with a doctor's note' - is immaterial. The determinative fact for fight licensing purposes is that cannabinoids are included on WADA's Prohibited List.
Cannabinoids are only prohibited "in competition". WADA expressly permits the use of marijuana and other cannabinoids outside of competition. Nevada is no different. A random, out of competition positive test for marijuana should not engender disciplinary sanction under the NAC's regulations.
More after the jump.
SBN coverage of UFC 143: Diaz vs. Condit

The Regulatory Ambiguity: "Before"
NAC 467.850(1) provides that the administration of or use of any prohibited substance "either before or during a contest or exhibition" is prohibited.
The obvious question is this: how long before is "before", under NAC 467.850(1)? A day? A week?
Media commentators have correctly pointed out that the presence of metabolites in a sample taken on fight night is consistent with the last "administration of or use of" the prohibited substance having been many days if not weeks earlier.
Is the use of marijuana potentially weeks in advance of a fight a violation of NAC 467.850(1)?
(Parenthetically, no similar question exists for organizations that strictly apply WADA's Code, as the Code expressly imposes an irrefutable presumption that an anti-doping violation has occurred wherever a Prohibited Substance or its metabolites are present in an athlete's sample. Nevada has no similar rule in its regulations.)
"Before" - The Fixed Interpretation
One might think that the obvious analog to marijuana is alcohol. The same regulatory provision that prohibits the administration of or use of marijuana also prohibits the administration of or use of alcohol (i.e. NAC 467.850(1)). In the case of each, the prohibition is on using "before or during" the contest or exhibition. If a fighter taking a drink seven days before a contest or exhibition has not used alcohol "before" the contest or exhibition, then we know that "before" denotes a time period of less than seven days. Perhaps it is substantially even less than that - two days, or maybe even 24 hours. If so, then "before" means just that for the purpose of all Prohibited Substances.
One could object as follows: The problem with this interpretation of "before" - where "before" denotes a fixed period of time applicable to all prohibited substances (the "Fixed Interpretation") - is that such interpretation fails in its treatment of prohibited substances that are performance enhancing. If "before" meant a fixed period of time (say, seven days, two days, or perhaps a day), then NAC 467.850(1) would permit fighters administering steroids, amongst other performance enhancers, up to seven/two/one day(s) in advance of a fight. And that is untenable.
The objection is partly misplaced. Steroids and many other performance enhancers are prohibited even out of competition - their use is prohibited at all times (unlike marijuana and alcohol). However, the objection correctly identifies that "before" must mean something different as applied to different prohibited substances, and this undermines the Fixed Interpretation. Also, the Fixed Interpretation is unable to distinguish between the consumption of different quantities of a given prohibited substance.
"Before": The Principled Interpretation
A better, more principled approach involves an examination of the rationale for the inclusion of a substance on the Prohibited List in the first place.
If we understood the rationale for inclusion of a substance on the Prohibited List, then that understanding should guide our understanding of the timing of its use that would justifiably be deemed to constitute an anti-doping violation. I refer to this as the "Principled Interpretation", as it interprets the meaning of the relevant anti-doping regulatory provision in light of its principled underlying rationale.
However, to apply the Principled Interpretation there is a preliminary question that must be answered: why is any substance included on the Prohibited List?
Criteria for Prohibited Substances: Application to Cannabinoids
Article 4.3.1 of WADA's Code provides that WADA is permitted to consider a substance for inclusion on the Prohibited List if WADA determines that a substance meets any two of the following three criteria:
1) the substance has the potential to enhance sport performance;
2) the use of the substance represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete; and
3) WADA has determined "that the Use of the substance or method violates the spirit of sport described in the Introduction to the Code."
The Principled Interpretation requires that we evaluate how these criteria apply to the class of prohibited substance under consideration - i.e. cannabinoids.
First, as a matter of common sense, we can knock (a) off the list immediately as entirely inapplicable.
Second, does (b) apply? Because WADA expressly permits marijuana use outside of competition, the only "actual or potential health risk to the athlete" engaged by this prohibited substance is "in competition" risk - i.e. an athlete competing under the psychoactive and physiological effects of marijuana. It follows that the rationale for inclusion of (b) in the List only justifies prohibition of cannabinoids immediately before a contest or exhibition.
That leaves the third condition, (c). This criterion is puzzling. On its face, "the spirit of sport" appears to be an empty place-holder, devoid of objective content, included only to serve as a vehicle for WADA to insert a non-evidence-based value judgment.
Does WADA imbue "the spirit of sport" with any semantic content in its Introduction to the Code? WADA's attempts to do so are limited to describing the "spirit of sport" as, alternately:
But this is just purporting to define one empty moralistic expression in terms of other, equally empty moralistic language.
Perhaps one could reasonably say that, regardless of what "the spirit of sport" might mean, it might violate the spirit of sport to use a substance during competition that represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete. So, by virtue of one and the same underlying fact (the health risk to the athlete competing under influence of a substance with psychoactive and physiological effects), cannabinoids arguably satisfy two out of WADA's three criteria.
Cannabinoid use prohibited only in cases of in-competition psychoactive and physiological effect
The Principled Interpretation dictates the following conclusions:
Marijuana metabolites are not evidence of an anti-doping violation
If an athletic commission wishes to enforce this rule, then it must tailor a test that will determine whether a violation has actually occurred. As is widely known, urinalysis casts too wide a net to tell us this.
That cannabinoid metabolites are found in a fighter's sample is consistent with the fighter ceasing to use a month before, a week before, or a day in advance of the contest. Heavy users have been documented as testing positive over 46 days after the most recent use. (See, e.g., Ellis GM, Maun MA, Judson BA, et al. Excretion patterns of cannabinoid metabolites after last use in a group of chronic users. Clin Pharmacol Ther 1986;38:572-578; and Smith-Kielland A, Skuterud B, Morland J. Urinary excretion of 11-nor-9-carboxy-delta9-
Accordingly, if the Nevada Athletic Commission's only basis for issuing a complaint against Nick Diaz is metabolites revealed by urinalysis of a sample collected on fight night, then it is unlikely the Commission has sufficient evidence to prove a violation under a Principled Interpretation of its regulations.
Even if the interpretation of Nevada's regulation mandated by the Principled Interpretation is mistaken, the rationale-based analysis is still intact. Any disciplinary action levied against Mr. Diaz would have no rational basis in the principles underlying a defensible anti-doping regime unless there is evidence Mr. Diaz was under the effects of marijuana on fight night.
Regulators and fight sport enthusiasts alike can, of course, hope and expect that Nevada's regulators do not slavishly adhere to their past practices and instead re-evaluate the need to interpret and apply their anti-doping rules in light of the rationale underlying a principled anti-doping regime.
Jonathan Tweedale is a litigation trial lawyer in Vancouver, British Columbia, and a Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission, an advisory body to the City of Vancouver. The opinions expressed in this article are solely his own and do not necessarily represent the collective opinion of the VAC.
29 recs | 257 comments
Could
Should perhaps, there’s that argument.
Won’t according to their own precedence.
Cory Braiterman - February 13, 2012
nick needs to higher this dude!!!
hell i’m sure Dana would pay the bill…
eddyreyna2 - February 13, 2012
...
I like how stunningly appropriate your typo is.
I’m also 100% sure you didn’t do it on purpose.
Cory Braiterman - February 13, 2012
the dude is from Vancouver...
you know he likes to get higher…
eddyreyna2 - February 13, 2012
BC Bud
The smoke of champions
voiceinthedesert - February 13, 2012
He was talking about your typo, dude.
Baba Booey - February 13, 2012
so was i…
eddyreyna2 - February 13, 2012
Interesting
And highly informative.
Drunken cutman - February 13, 2012
I'll take odds that this argument won't fly
Wish it would, but Diaz is S.O.L. Interesting article.
SteamboatWillie - February 13, 2012
not if he hires jonathan tweedale
Hardy's in your face - February 13, 2012
If it does fly, Nevada will amend the rules. The article points out that WADA says that presence of metabolites is sufficient to establish use, and his argument hinges entirely on Nevada not explicitly stating the same. No way anyone involved would be okay with allowing that situation to continue once it came to their attention.
Hummus5989 - February 13, 2012
This is fantastic. Holy shit.
Scott C. Broussard - February 13, 2012
yeah, this bloody elbow fellow can write!
gspmademegay - February 13, 2012
Yeah sometime they dun good stuffs.
pud333 - February 13, 2012
Nick Diaz should hide you for his hearing.
That is a fantastic article. If whoever his lawyers are for a potential hearing don’t use these points here, then they are not doing their job.
Tim Bernier - February 13, 2012 via mobile
*hire, not hide
Tim Bernier - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Do both
The state’s opening argument concludes and then Nate rolls in a big cake and Nick puts on his robe and wizard hat.
BOOM!
menckenstein - February 13, 2012
Ramblin'man - February 13, 2012
Silence will fall when the question is asked.
Powerbomb - February 13, 2012
How the hell did Doctor Who make it to BE?
I’m not sure how to feel about this.
Zachary Kater - February 13, 2012
He does travel all of space and time…
Ramblin'man - February 13, 2012
Shit. I had that coming.
Zachary Kater - February 13, 2012
RolloTomasi - February 13, 2012
I’m not a fan of that show, but that guy was way better than Matt Smith or whatever the new one’s name is.
Zachary Kater - February 13, 2012
Hey baby, are you Nick Diaz's NSAC disciplinary hearing?
Because you’ve got one year suspension written all over you.
…damnit.
Seriously though this is a state regulatory body. They’re not going to give away the chance to take money from someone.
menckenstein - February 13, 2012
Excellent article
Seeing as you are a Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission, do you have any first hand experience with a situation like this?
RagingBronco - February 13, 2012
GSP is Me. and Me is excited if this works
Stiff Jab - February 13, 2012
OMG.
I get embarrassed for my country every time I see this gif. :|
Anton Tabuena - February 13, 2012
Don't be. You should be all, "Yeah? That's my peeps. SO FUCKING WHAT?"
pud333 - February 13, 2012
would you say the same, if the only thing people saw from your country is this guy?
Anton Tabuena - February 13, 2012
...what's wrong with his shoulders?
ALSO GO HOP
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
He just had to try and look like Phil Davis.
Anton Tabuena - February 13, 2012
Site injections.
LIke synthol.
stinkinburrows - February 13, 2012
My guess, too
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
tumors?
F.U.B.A.R - February 13, 2012
Why so serious?
warren305 - February 13, 2012
El Pablo Diablo - February 13, 2012
!!!!!! WHAT THE FU--HHNNGH
menckenstein - February 13, 2012
Kill it with fire.
RolloTomasi - February 13, 2012
HAHAHA
El Pablo Diablo - February 13, 2012
Rollo
I cud use a guy see… whenever I’m needed to say something, I grab the little white box and press the red button… so the guy appears and says the thing… then he’s gone and its just me… but like the situation has changed, fancy the job?
rohedron - February 13, 2012
Umm
What?
RolloTomasi - February 13, 2012
rohedron - February 14, 2012
RolloTomasi - February 14, 2012
He's lonely me thinks.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 14, 2012
:O
RolloTomasi - February 14, 2012
Forever rec'd.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 14, 2012
hired
knew u wer the man for the job…
rohedron - February 14, 2012
I expect my first check next week.
RolloTomasi - February 14, 2012
Krugerrands ok?
rohedron - February 14, 2012
sell me some ladders
rohedron - February 14, 2012
Wow
This puts a whole new spin on things.
Patrick Wyman - February 13, 2012
I think this is the way this will play out. Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer on hand along with his doctors. When he was last popped MJ was illegal. It is legal today for Nick. There is no way for the commission to determine when he used and the wording is very loose. I imagine the outcry will be deafening if Diaz gets off with just a fine but I think that’s how it plays out
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
i thought you were kidding when you said
‘Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer.’
but apparently you werent.
gspmademegay - February 13, 2012
Of course he is going to have a top notch lawyer. If you don’t think Cesar is on this in every way then you dont have a clue. He is going to have a team ready for that hearing that will be tops on this. His pay, not only Nick’s, depends on it.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
I hope you are correct.
But I have to admit to thinking the same as gspmademegay.
Don’t you think it’s more likely that Diaz doesn’t show up and the commission admits they were ready to let him off the hook, as long as he provided this argument, but since he didn’t show up, 1 year suspension??
I think that is more likely.
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
No, I don’t think that is likely at all. Since the press conference fiasco Diaz has been everywhere he was supposed to be. Whoever it is he paid $100k to stay on top of things for him did his job. Who knows when he smoked weed, that’s another issue. But, if Diaz is not retiring he will be there and he will be there with a team that Cesar will assemble. Say what you want about Cesar but business wise he is very smart. Nick will barely have to say a word.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
You do know that he never paid anyone $100k to take care of things, right?
Cesar told Mauro Ranallo that was rubbish.
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
It’s irrelevant if he paid someone or not. The point is that since the press conference fiasco he has been everywhere he was supposed to be. I don’t think that the athletic commission hearing will be any different.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Thats been like 5 things
schm1583 - February 13, 2012
Wrong.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
For $80 000
something tells me that Diaz is there 5 minutes early in a pressed suit…
Bloody L - February 13, 2012
the same way that cesar made sure nick showed up for his press conferences?
tha dude - February 13, 2012
Did Nick miss anything for the Condit fight?
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
People who I generally trust keep saying he missed a few flights and Countdown appointments.
Ben Thapa - February 13, 2012
They said on the Primetime show that he missed three flights to Vegas for the fight. But, he was still on time for all of his pre-fight activities. Missing Countdown interviews is not that big a deal. He’s in the middle of his training and they have to be deferential to his schedule during that time.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
You just completely contradicted yourself.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
No. I didn’t. He can miss a flight and still be on time for his commitments. Dana said Nick did everything that he was asked to do for the Condit fight. He didn’t for the GSP fight.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
1. He met all his obligations.
2. Uh, okay, so he missed Countdown tapings.
3. Uh, it’s okay because “it’s no big deal”.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
The Countdown takings aren’t scheduled press conferences or public workouts. It’s a producer saying we want to interview Nick at 3pm, 3 comes and Nick says “Fuck that, I’m going on a run, I’ll talk to them later.” It’s a completely different scenario. Apples and oranges.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
The UFC pays for production of Countdown shows. When you don’t show up for scheduled appointments (and it wasn’t “I’m going for a run”, it was “I’m not getting on a plane a bunch of times”), you’re not meeting your obligations. End of story.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
First, You are going off of hearsay regarding the Countdown issue. Second, the flights had nothing to do with the Countdown show. Those interviews were done prior and in Lodi. He missed flights heading to Vegas for the fight but was still on time for his first event in Vegas. If Nick completed all the interviews he was required to for the Countdown show he did what he was obligated to do. They have to work to his schedule during his training time, not the other way around. So if he misses an interview but makes it up later he’s doing what he supposed to do. End of story.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Cesar Gracie lied.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
Obligations include more than press conferences. Not sure if you’ve ever flown before, but when you book a flight, you’re supposed to be there for the flight. According to the Primetime show, he missed three flights. That’s ridiculous. Where was Nick top notch manager, Caesar?
And I don’t know what would make you think Caesar and Nick would show up at the hearing with some top notch legal dream team. I’ve never seen anything they’ve ever done that would make me believe they would even show up.
Lucas2 - February 13, 2012
They got Nick a UFC title shot
against the biggest draw and most popular fighter in the sport right now, with a huge contract.
These guys aren’t stupid.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Yes I’ve flown many times. Condescend much? Who cares if he missed the flight going from SFO to Las Vegas? They run almost by the hour. It’s like catching the next train. They said on the Primetime show that he arrived in time for his obligations. That’s all that matters.
As far as him showing up for the athletic commission hearing, he showed up for the one related to the Gomi fight. And now he has money, quite a bit of it. That changes things. I think it is ridiculously naïve to think that he would just do what he has done in the past.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
I'm almost 100% sure
The UFC had Nick on their own jet to avoid any problems, too.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
My thoughts exactly
Even in Portland, there’s 30 flights to Vegas a day and it only takes about an hour.
I imagine its a 30 minute flight or less from SFO.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
It’s crazy people getting up in arms because he missed a flight but was still on time for what he needed to do in Vegas. Guess what? He forgot to pack his toothbrush too. What an asshole!
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Its weird
He sets something off in people, hate him or love him.
I was thinking Reno when I said 30 minutes, LAS is like an hour or so flight.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Yeah, it’s about an hour. You can actually get a private jet for around $3k-5k and have it leave when you want. It’s not a bad deal since he has his team flying with him as well and he can smoke on the flight.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
I could care less whether Nick Diaz misses his flight. The point, just as pointed out above, is that you are making the claim that after the two no-show press conferences, Nick was on point and was everywhere he was supposed to be when he was supposed to be there. Then, without even taking a breath, you point out that he did, in fact, miss a few flights, but those don’t count. It’s silly.
Lucas2 - February 13, 2012
What’s silly is you saying you don’t care if he misses his flight and then using it to make your point that he didn’t live up to his obligations. Nick was not obligated to get on the flight he missed. He was obligated to be in Vegas by a certain time, which he was. What point in there are you missing.
memitim - February 13, 2012
Has any MMA-athlete ever had legal representation in front of the comission? Chael didn’t. Overeem was on the phone all by his own as far as we know. Did Barnett have anybody with him? If so, I don’t remember him consulting his counsel. But Nick Diaz of all people will bring a lawyer? I say: no. He’ll bring Cesar, because Cesar will have to bring him, I’d guess.
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
I thought Barnett walked out of his hearing because he didn’t have a lawyer and was going to retain counsel?
The Lethal Haze - February 13, 2012
This is true
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
And then he never returned, did he?
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
No, but he likely will if he moves over to the UFC. I don’t see them going commission hunting for Barnett so Barnett will have to get an attorney and go before the commission. Most of the time the athletes have their attorney with them if they are trying to make a case. If they are just showing up to receive their punishment, like Thiago Silva, they don’t bother. Otherwise, they have representation with them. And Nick has a case here. I’m sure his attorney will be with him and will mount a defense.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Like Haze said, Barnett ended his hearing to get representation. Sonnen had his lawyer with him.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Sonnen had his doctor with him. But a lawyer? Really? I do not remember that at all.
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
His attorney, Steve Thompson, was with him. Go back and look at the videos or transcripts.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Damn, totally missed him then. Moot point anyway since somebody posted a link stating Diaz has indeed hired a lawyer (or Cesar Gracie more likely). So you were double-right ;)
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
Sherlock also had a lawyer.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
Sherlock is what the cool kids call Sean sherk.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
And, Boom,
memitim - February 13, 2012
<Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer > Does that mean Nick has a Honda for sale?
voiceinthedesert - February 13, 2012
Damn Block quote!
voiceinthedesert - February 13, 2012
Maybe he'll use some of few hundred grand he just got
Or from the other few hundred k he earned a few months ago?
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Exactly. It’s amazing to me people think that he won’t show up with top representation. Money changes things.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
The man explicitly rambles on about 6 figure lawyer fees
I also think its safe to say that Cesar probably didn’t negotiate a 7 figure contract out with the UFC by himself either.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
old joke man
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
excellent post
Cunny - February 13, 2012
If Nick uses this argument to escape suspension, he should just give you something like $50,000 on GP.
Rob Young - February 13, 2012
Someone point Ceasar Gracie's Twitter to this article
I don’t think Diaz’s representation is up to snuff with information like this. They are too busy getting high and arguing judges score cards.
Roman727 - February 13, 2012
YESSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Taylor Tolliver - February 13, 2012
Very informative
However, my cynicism says Keith Keizer will give nay fucks about this argument.
The Lethal Haze - February 13, 2012
i asked him about it this morning.
this was his answer.
Victor Rodriguez - February 13, 2012
A member of the Vancouver AC defending Diaz getting toasted, BIG SURPRISE!
He probably sold Diaz the weed in the first place!
loljustkiddingdontbanme
Seriously though, this article looks like a smart person wrote it. Will read later.
smoogy2 - February 13, 2012
There's also the Ross Rebagliati precedent.
In 1998, Ross Rebagliati won the gold medal (in snowboarding giant slalom) at the Nagano Olympics. He tested positive for THC, and was stripped of his medal. He, however, argued that marijuana wasn’t actually on the list of banned substances, and the IOC eventually gave him his medal back.
So, if Nick can successfully argue, as Jonathan Tweedale suggests, that marijuana cannot be on the list of prohibited substances (because it does not satisfy two of the three criteria in Article 4.3.1), then the Rebagliati precent clearly shows that he cannot be sanctioned for using it.
Llewdor - February 13, 2012
but weed is on the list now. it wasn’t whenever Ross competed. he won because he could prove it wasn’t on the list. arguing it shouldn’t be there is a lot harder.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
interesting take. hopefully the end result of this saga is a new look at how the commissions test for weed.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
n
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
fanned phone. I have no clue why this comment is here.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
rec’d it regardless.
Tacoknight - February 13, 2012
it is thoughtprovoking i’ll grant you… hmm… yes… rec
rohedron - February 13, 2012
And the punishment to consider...
If the NSAC is unlikely to be willing to amend their rules, Diaz’s representation might have better luck, arguing against anything but a minor punishment.
I mean, based on the argument presented here, the legal status of his usage, and the lack of effect on the fight, I think if Diaz shows up with his MMJ recommendation he has a compelling argument for no fine if he pleads no-contest to the charge.
If Diaz is serious about his retirement, then they’re only trying to avoid fines…
Bloody L - February 13, 2012
Informative. But holy shit, this is exactly why I never went into law.
pud333 - February 13, 2012
Excellent analysis by someone who knows what he is talking about. Well done.
memitim - February 13, 2012 via mobile
Dollars to donuts Diaz STILL gets suspended and fined though.
pud333 - February 13, 2012
this is great
This is why Bloodyelbow is the best place to read about mma and discuss it.
elmojo - February 13, 2012
Informative for sure. But I have a problem with any lawyer just sluffing off something like this so easily:
I’m not saying that weed is a performance enhancer. I’m saying that there’s not definitive proof that it’s NOT. No lawyer in his right mind uses “common sense” as a legitimate argument. It seems that he said it in this way to just try and ignore the issue there.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
The "Duh. It's common sense, stupid" argument is perfectly valid.
when I am talking to my little shit of a brother :)
pud333 - February 13, 2012
hahaha!
The comment alert popped up that “Tim Burke” had made a new comment and I was all like…..
“oh yeah, can’t wait to see how he dismisses this”
….and then you hit on the one point in the article that I also thought “waiiiiittt a minute…”
There is for sure no definitive proof that it isn’t a performance enhancer. I think it actually has a higher chance of being one than not, since logiic would dictate that any positive, “performance enhancing” effects would be hidden by regulators and lobbyists who wish to keep the drug illegal.
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
If this is a valid defense for Nick, I’m all for it. I never touched on my stance in regards to weed in MMA because it had nothing to do with what I was arguing at that point. It was a completely separate issue, which many didn’t seem to understand.
Either way, what Tweedale is saying is very interesting and I like it. It was just that one point that slipped me up because it’s completely glossed over.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
I was kind of teasing you.
Since you took a fairly reasonable stance on how Diaz should be dealt with and were singled out as the poster boy for irrational fanboy hate.
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
I know, I didn’t mean to direct that at you. It was just a convenient lead-in to get the point across. : )
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
I just cannot see how marijuana is a performance enhancer. I’ve heard some people say that it is because it allows people to tolerate more pain than they normally would, which isn’t true, and even if it was, it would be completely outweighed by the decrease in reaction time and concentration.
I could almost see the argument for it being a training enhancer, as people who smoke up when training will sometimes hit the gym long and hard, but I don’t see how training harder translates into “performance enhancing”… I mean, some people do that without the benefit of weed anyway. I will say this: I heard that Michael Phelps eats something like a 10,000-calorie diet when training? I’m sure MJ helps accomplish that. I know there’s no way I could eat 10,000 calories in a day without it (probably not even with it).
rarson - February 13, 2012
its actually prohibited
out of concern for the fighters’ safety, don’t want people fighting impaired.
Nate Wilcox - February 13, 2012
That has nothing to do with what I said.
rarson - February 13, 2012
Even if it is performance enhancing
It is not banned when out of competition. So the same logic applies. Unless they can prove he was under the influence during the contest, Diaz should not be sanctioned. Not saying that is how the commission will rule, just noting that whether Marijuana is a performance enhancer or not has no bearing on the conclusion of the post.
IWillPartyHard - February 13, 2012
“I’m saying that there’s not definitive proof that it’s NOT.”
By the construction of the argument, this is an incoherent statement.
Luke Thomas - February 13, 2012
I used a double negative because I’m tired.
Is there viable proof that weed is not a performance enhancer? I’m saying if a lawyer is going to present an argument, you need to have viable proof to satisfy all three points mentioned above. “Common sense” is not a valid argument.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
Who has the burden to prove that a substance is not a performance enhancer?
It was my understanding that NSAC doesn’t believe that marijuana is a performance enhancer, so it seems unlikely that Diaz would even have to argue that point. Hasn’t Kizer expressly said that it’s a safety issue for the fighters?
Dave Strummer - February 13, 2012
But if the commission wants to punish the guy
they will do so unless the denfense can come up with some proof that Weed does nothing to help a fighter in the cage. SO, yes they will probably have to come up with something if they want to use that argument.
Riley_96 - February 13, 2012
I don't think that's right
The commission prohibits the use of marijuana in competition, but it is my understanding from a Kizer quote I saw floating around here that it isn’t even the NSAC’s position that it’s a performance enhancer.
Dave Strummer - February 13, 2012
Maybe so, but if they feel he should be gone for a year and Nick tries to bring up
the argument that the stuff does not help it is possible that the commission will push for proof if only to make the defense produce it. Knowing full well that it is a hard thing to prove one way or the other.
Riley_96 - February 13, 2012
The defense can produce the Kizer quote though and I’m very sure, if they absolutely need to, they can also get a medical expert to testify on their account.
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
Well, the three points are in regards to how WADA views individual things for inclusion into their prohibited list. NSAC is following WADA protocols, right? Kizer’s stance on weed doesn’t really matter. If it’s on WADA’s list, it’s on NSAC’s. Two of the criteria need to be met to make WADA’s list. He’s arguing two and three well. He’s just ignoring one.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
But it doesn’t really matter, does it? He is just formally examining if weed should be on the list in the first place and concludes, that yes, it fulfills positions 2 & 3 from a certain perspective. He then goes on to say that by the spirit of why MJ is prohibited the rule should only apply if Nick had consumed the substance shortly before the fight or all possible effects would’ve worn off. So, since he basically admits that it can be on the WADA-list under the sketchy criteria they offer, it doesn’t really matter if it is a PED or not. What matters is the distinction made between “before competition” (for weed et al) and “outside of competition” (for the “real” PEDs) and the interpretation of “before”.
KGNLuc - February 13, 2012
First of all, proof is a mathematical term. Science deals with evidence.
Secondly, you cannot disprove a negative. The claim is that marijuana is a performance enhancer. It is up to the person making that claim to provide the evidence, otherwise the claim is rejected.
rarson - February 13, 2012
luke droppin the hammer
inthepipes - February 13, 2012
hey pipes...
check your hotmail…we’re waiting on you for the waiver wire to begin.
John Danaher's Hair - February 13, 2012
I’d love to hear the argument that marijuana is somehow a performance enhancing drug, because even without using common sense (which is actually what many laws are based on, have you ever heard of the reasonableness standard? Think twice before you try to say what a legal professional does or does not do if you don’t know what you’re talking about), medical science essentially proves that marijuana could not aid in combat sports. Nearly every piece of literature on the subject agrees that motor function is impaired while under the influence of cannabis, which means reaction time is slowed as well as multiple other debilitative effects. If anything, it’s a performance inhibitor, so maybe next time some common sense would do you good.
nomomrnicekyle - February 13, 2012
Burke’s comment was perfectly valid. The lawyer glossed over it, so it was reasonable to question why, and what good would it do to say “it’s common sense” in court as a defence.
pud333 - February 13, 2012
I’m not a lawyer, you’re right. And my tone was a little harsh, I agree. I shouldn’t be talking from a point of complete understanding of what an attorney does if I’m not one. But the term “essentially proves” is as bad as “common sense” to me. Loose justification of something you CAN’T prove..
Just my opinion.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
Look, if an entire library of peer reviewed articles on the subject of marijuana and it’s effects on the human body and brain are not enough to prove to you that it is not performance enhancing, I don’t think anything ever will.
nomomrnicekyle - February 13, 2012
I already said about that I didn’t think it was a performance enhancer. I’m referring to arguing it to WADA, as he’s talking about above.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
I call your "peer reviewed articles" and "medical science"
and raise you
“The Beatles”
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
"Loose justification of something you CAN’T prove.."
Science can’t “prove” ANYTHING.
rarson - February 13, 2012
But you can't prove he was stoned during the fight.
Hard to be a preformance enhancer if you are sober.
sklart - February 13, 2012
Can’t prove he wasn’t. That’s the problem. Burden of proof will be on him.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
Why?
In criminal or civil law, its the other way around.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Exactly.
Shotokanman - February 13, 2012
See my comments below.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
This is a confusing area. I'll pop in later.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
You can prove he wasn't through blood tests.
sklart - February 13, 2012
And you can't prove that magic pixies don't exist.
Logical fallacy.
rarson - February 13, 2012
He agrees with you :P
You guys are on the same side of the argument.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
I don't think so...
because I would never make the argument that someone is wrong because they can’t prove a negative.
rarson - February 13, 2012
I think he's saying what you are
Just wording it weirdly.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Nope. He really isn’t.
rarson - February 13, 2012
Uh....but the burden of proof is on the person trying to prove it.
i.e if NSAC says he is stoned during the fight, they have to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty.
sklart - February 14, 2012
is blood from that night sitting around with any sort of reasonable chain of evidence?
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
An article came out in the British Medical Journal this past week finding that drivers under the influence of cannabis are 2x as likely to have an accident than those not on weed.
That’s the kind of performance enhancement I need. The ability to not know where I’m going and run directly into a punch
Robust23 - February 13, 2012
1st this Wasn’t “A random, out of competition” test it was a fight day test
2nd who cares what a stoner from Vancouver thinks lol
williambonney - February 13, 2012
good luck w/ that
bet it won’t fly one bit with those guys…having listened to a few of those hearings…can’t see any way in hell they take this approach and don’t punish him (especially with his brashness towards the law).
Lawyers are good at what they do, but that’s why there are always 2 sides to a story…would love to get an opposing lawyer rebut this one.
themango69 - February 13, 2012
I want this to work.
I want to see Diaz fight. I don’t care that he tested positive for MJ. I am disappointed that it is an issue, both on the legal side and on Diaz’ not being able to stop smoking for a month to piss clean and fulfill his contractual obligation, or for setting up in advance an exemption. I am disappointed in the UFC for not being more proactive in facilitating a legal way for Diaz to avoid this situation. You can’t say they couldn’t see this coming.
But I really want Diaz in the UFC. Even though I think he lost to Condit. I want to see a rematch, and to see him fight again soon regardless.
DankNabbot - February 13, 2012
Great minds think alike
I said much the same thing here albeit far less eloquently.
Nice to see some intelligent thought at BE on this topic. Tim Burke and Kid Nate haven’t exactly been beacons of logical thinking on this one.
Out of curiosity, assuming the Commission rules against Diaz, what are the procedures for appeal and what venue would it be under (i.e. still under NSAC)?
TubbyMcFats - February 13, 2012
Very interesting (and very good work), but I doubt it makes a difference in the hearing.
The problem will be the method of testing: the NSAC uses urinalysis, which fails to account for when marijuana was actually used, but Diaz and co. also can’t prove he DIDN’T use it the same day, so it’s probably a wash. You have to go with the established standard in this case.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
Isn't the burden of proof on the NSAC though?
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
no. thus isn’t court. they set the rules. the rules say weed is on the list. if you want it off the list you are going to have to show why, and that will probably be harder to do after you are busted.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
wait, what?
No, I’m saying its on the NSAC to prove he fought with weed in his system, not to show WHY they want to prohibit weed.
that was my question. In the rules, if someone gets popped, is the burden of proof on them to show why they were not on said substance?
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
as in: is it guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty?
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
its neither in this case. their rule says weed metabolites = guilty.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
ahhh, gotcha- thanks for the clarification.
So what’s the point of the hearing? The opportunity to present mitigating circumstances?
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
I guess just to make sure and to officially ggive a punishment. this appeal may work, but the state won’t have to prove that pot is evil, they will just point to the list.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
Is it at the appeals stage yet? I thought they hadn't done anything yet.
Holy shit this is one big fracaso.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
He hasn’t even been charged yet. Nick has 20 days to respond to the complaint.
At least that’s what Kizer said a couple days ago.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Man we really need a handle on what exactly the standard of proof and process is.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
I don't think there really is one
Things this ambiguous are exactly why we ave lawyers.
I think what they’re trying to say(Phildo and Van) is that the commission doesn’t answer to anyone, so they are free to interpret the rules how they see fit.
Which is a double edge sword, because they’re letting guess schedule ‘random’ drug tests.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
if the NSAC is a branch of the state government
Then they better get their shit in order, because any lawyer worth his salt would trample on these rules.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
You'd imagine
The law is so gray, lawyers argue what’s black and white.
This wording he is quoting is especially gray even for in the legal world.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
I thought the point of the article
Is their rules don’t actually say that?
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
they don’t according to this interpretation.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
A positive drug test is proof that he had weed in his system.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
that's an argument to make.
Its evidence, not necessarily proof.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
The burden of proof is on Diaz because he failed to meet the established standard (urine test). The NSAC can’t PROVE that he was under the influence the day of, but he also can’t prove he WASN’T. They could try and take the issue to court, but that wouldn’t be resolved before the impending suspension (retroactive to the date of the failed test) will have already run its course.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
Ok, Gotcha.
So the procedure goes: You get popped, that’s enough for the NSAC to suspend you, unless you present circumstances or evidence that you didn’t take roids/smoke weed?
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
And the time and money to fight it. Chances are Diaz takes his “medicine.”
pud333 - February 13, 2012
I have a feeling
Someone(Zuffa or Cesar) is going to find him a bad ass attorney, they’re going to lay out a similar argument and get the suspension reduced.
The NSAC and Zuffa has each other’s backs. That’s a huge factor here.
Alistair Overeem made that a little to apparent, IMO.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
good point. ideally, that diaz should have applied for a TUE exemption the moment he got his prescription AND he should have submitted an opinion that urinalysis is an inappropriate test for in-competition purposes.
TubbyMcFats - February 13, 2012
if the beach was in zuffa’s pocket the way people think chael would have coached tuf and the guy sitting on top of Dana’s worst ref ever list at the moment would be nowhere near the octagon.
Phildo - February 13, 2012 via Android app
I think that was a personal thing between Chael and Kizer. Since Chael drug his name into it and essentially called him a liar.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
"The burden of proof is on Diaz because he failed to meet the established standard (urine test)."
That’s absurd. You’re claiming that he was high. The burden of proof is on you! A positive piss test is NOT proof that someone was high a day or even a WEEK before they took the test.
rarson - February 13, 2012
That is rationally correct, but this is an issue of procedural standards.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
This is how this will be looked at by the government (whether or not it’s “right or wrong” is irrelevant):
1.) The NSAC has standards in place that have been practiced for decades
2.) Nick Diaz was aware of those standards prior to undergoing urinalysis testing
3.) Nick Diaz failed to meet those standards, and this is the second time this has occurred.
The bottom line is, there’s an established standard that states that if you test positive for marijuana metabolites in your urine, you will be fined and suspended. You can argue that the standard is unjust or impractical and should be changed, but that doesn’t change the fact that at the time of the violation the standard was in place.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
And it could be even worse: we don’t know what took place between Diaz and the NSAC when he tested positive in 2007; they usually make fighters who test positive explain what they will do for rehabilitation so that they don’t continue to violate the testing policies. Whatever he told them will be brought to light in the hearing. I would be very interested to hear the dialogue that occurred between himself and the Commission the last time he tested positive.
Machiel Van - February 13, 2012
"(whether or not it’s "right or wrong" is irrelevant"
I agree, especially since I was talking about LOGIC, not “right” and “wrong”.
rarson - February 13, 2012
Procedural standards?
I don’t see how “procedural standards” would change whether the argument is logical or not.
rarson - February 13, 2012
yeah not to rain on this parade or anything
this litigation lawyer is from Vancouver, BC, CanadaA
although his interpretation seems plausible, this won’t have any precedent with the NSAC, a US-based commission:
1. Diaz already has a well-documented history of drug use, specifically within the state of Nevada
2. NSAC can’t/won’t show mercy on a fighter who tested positive (again) on the main event held by the largest MMA organization on the planet
Gouken - February 13, 2012
Here's Kizer on the situation
MattParker117 - February 13, 2012
Thank you
voiceinthedesert - February 13, 2012
That was well said by Kizer.
Luke Nelson - February 13, 2012
F.U.B.A.R - February 13, 2012
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
Can't...stop...laughing....
breathing….stopping…
gzl5000 - February 13, 2012
OMG!
Body Triangle kills another.
RolloTomasi - February 13, 2012
I freely admit
that when I stumble across a funny gif, I secretly wait to unleash it here.
Body Triangle - February 13, 2012
Give the man a biscuit.
He articulates logically what I’ve been writing on t’internet this past week, with reference to the RAW, which I have not.
ToffeeA - February 13, 2012
One could also argue that the use of drugs like alcohol & cannabis are for sure within the spirit of THIS sport. Obviously many practitioners come from backgrounds where a lot of everyday activities are frowned upon, (though I don’t want to discuss religion & morality here) but one of mma’s cornerstones is freedom to think & experiment outside of the rigid confines of existing doctrines.
ToffeeA - February 13, 2012
This sounds so terrible.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Free your mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U22oDUamyAE
I’m not a pothead, and I’m really not all that keen on Bruce Lee. I do, however, dislike the close mindedness that comes out whenever ‘drugs’ are discussed. It sounds exactly like the ignorant opinions trotted out every time someone in public office, or your mother discovers MMA, and decide they don’t like it.
ToffeeA - February 13, 2012
I'm stoned right now
and drink regularly.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Well done.
I think. My point is, there is an idea associated with mma that one should not simply do something a certain way, simply because people tell you to.
My reply was an excuse to link my idea together with Bruce Lee, which by extension also links right back to pot. It wasn’t to suggest that you were actually ignorant.
Incidentally, there are some mashups of that monologue with the jump scene from the matrix, which is double good.
ToffeeA - February 13, 2012
I was just saying
That it sounds pretty bad for MMA.
Doesn’t reflect well on the sport or the athletes IMO.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Yeah, I kinda figured.
I can totally see your point, but I believe it to be true. It shouldn’t have to be bad for mma. Weed & alcohol are more mainstream than football. It’s pervasive. Hell, I just watched an old romcom – the characters get shitfaced, and there is implied pot usage. It’s not done in some awful clichéd fashion, the only thing keeping that movie from being a U is the alcohol. And the phonesex. ok maybe a 12.
The fighters are people too. SUre, the top guys might have lots of coaches, and seem to live an entirely sport-driven life, but they’re people too. For all people go on about what fine-tuned athletes fighters are, mma isn’t formula 1.
Paul Daley staggering comically sideways probably had far more to do with him failing to breathe in the midst of the insane exchanges with Diaz than him getting tired.
It’s like if I get really plastered, I sometimes don;t feel right for a few days afterwards. That usually isn’t the case though, yet if a few rugby players have some beer after a match, then obviously that’s why they fail to win the world cup. Right. I have complete;ly lost the point of whatever I was talking about here.
ToffeeA - February 13, 2012
the paul daley thing that you're referring to
that was a liver shot
kellly - February 13, 2012
Already starting a minor shitstorm on the UG, the title is making people think he wasn’t sanctioned.
Amsterdaam - February 13, 2012
proving that the UG doesn't have the sharpest knives in the drawer
Cory Braiterman - February 13, 2012
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/ns/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=1957288&forum=1&page=1&pc=1#post-38128998
Amsterdaam - February 13, 2012
first comment, long-time reader
THC can remain in your system for weeks at a time. There is no reliable way to test for THC that has been consummed within hours. Cannabinoids are on the prohibited list.
The choice seens simple: keep the ban with the present method of testing or do not test at all since there is no reliable way to determine accurately (within a legal frame) as to when the THC was consummed.
voiceinthedesert - February 13, 2012
This is from NORML
So we probably need verification, but they say that THC levels at or above 3.5-5ng/ml in blood indicate likely impairment
Blood is used to determine alcohol intoxication…. same idea here
kellly - February 13, 2012
Dr Margaret Goodman (That Vada thing) bring up a good point
MattParker117 - February 13, 2012
Too bad the rest is opinionated drivel
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
true
MattParker117 - February 13, 2012 via mobile
"Note that years ago, the NSAC changed the threshold for testing positive. So, an athlete has to have considerable exposure for them to test positive."
But a person’s metabolite level depends on a myriad of factors, like weight, age, body type, the last time they smoked, how often they smoke, how long they smoked consistently before stopping, etc. So one bottom line doesn’t provide an accurate assessment for every individual. Furthermore, “changed the threshold” doesn’t necessarily mean that the threshold is “fixed” (less fighters are testing positive, so…?).
rarson - February 13, 2012
Second hand smoke...
With detection levels set very low then you start seeing false positives from random exposure which get very hard to prove (“I smelled some weed coming from the crowd as they were putting on my vaseline”), like the Canadian snowboarder who had his gold medal stripped:
So increasing the detection level serves mainly to filter out actual smokers from athletes who just happened to sit near someone at a party.
That’s where this case gets a bit special: Nick Diaz will not be denying that he smoked (in all probability).
It was legal for him, he was not under the influence on fight night. Then the commissions case then boils down to him doing something he’s allowed to do under the law and their regulations, only doing it a bit too close to the fight (with no effect on his performance). That’s much shakier grounds for punishments.
My guess is that they don’t touch their regulations or rules, but offer Diaz a very mild punishment in exchange for a guilty plea…
Bloody L - February 13, 2012
"It was legal for him"
I think one could argue that it wasn’t, given that marijuana possession is a federal offense. Just because the state has legalized it doesn’t mean that it is legal. If Abraham Lincoln taught us anything, it’s that the federal government has more guns than the states and they can assert their will upon whomever they choose.
rarson - February 13, 2012
That could very well be true
That’s one thing I think people who are calling Diaz out for not having applied for a TUE seem to forget…
A therapeutic usage exemption would require signing legal documents admitting to a federal crime, as I understand the law. That may mean nothing, but that might also be enough to land him, a visible public figure, into some serious hot water.
Regardless of the rightness/wrongness of prohibition, the current set of laws are complicated, there are lots of ‘gotchyas’, and there isn’t a lot of precedent for things like this… I can totally imagine Diaz’s lawyer recommending he not apply for a TUE.
What I’m curious to know is to what extent that could be a viable defense with the commission… Basically “I wanted a TUE, but my lawyer told me I could go to jail”. Then what?
Bloody L - February 14, 2012
would that be that much worse than the card he has? or the failed test or the many public comments on the matter?
Phildo - February 14, 2012 via Android app
Yes, if it shows up on a test. It really is that simple. It doesn’t matter if it was weeks in advance, when there’s months between fights. Fighting in the UFC and being licensed in particular is a privilege, not a right. When you sign up for Bloody Elbow, you agree to follow the rules in exchange for the privilege of posting here. If I call Kid Nate a fucking mouth breather, he’ll ban me until he’s all out of fucks to give. I lose the privilege if I don’t follow the rules 100%. If I was making $200k a fight before bonuses, I’d stop smoking for months, years. I’d stop drinking. I’d stop having sex (for a time). It’s a privilege where you listen to the rules. The rule isn’t totally that you can’t smoke a day before a fight, it’s that they’ve given themselves broad discretionary power to discipline you if you test with it in your system, whether you smoked the day before or six weeks before. It’s like if I insulted someone Kid Nate knew (plz don’t ban me Nate) … he can still ban the shit out of me because, as it happens, BE has broad discretionary power. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s ultimate power and this isn’t a loophole so much as interesting language that would be relevant if there wasn’t the simple “don’t test with it in your system” caveat that supersedes everything.
As already pointed out, you can’t knock (a) off the list due to common sense since it’s debatable, and has been debated for years. And yes, of course (b) applies, since it affects different people differently and has been known to do things like slow reaction time and reflexes.
While I totally agree that it shouldn’t be on the ban list, it is – and reading things the way you want to won’t change it.
James Brady - February 13, 2012
To amend my last sentence, I agree that it should be legal, but I don’t know if I think it should be off the banned list. I think that’s beyond me, really. I’m not an expert on pot itself. Don’t feel comfortable saying that
James Brady - February 13, 2012
Not to be a dick
But he is the commissioner of the Vancouver Athletic commission and probably a lawyer.
He might know a little bit more about this than you.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Granted .. I never said I knew more than him, no?
I was giving some examples based on how I perceived the rules and situation. I didn’t tell him he’s a fucking moron or anything like that. I’m an expert on totally different things and comfortable with that. Did I need credentials to comment on this?
James Brady - February 13, 2012
I just don’t make it a habit to argue with professionals in their field of expertise, especially lawyers.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
He posted about something on a forum. I’m replying with how I perceive things. I am not confrontational (I’m not trying to be) and I’m not insulting him or his expert opinion. Did you go and reply to everybody else in this topic who find anything wrong with this and tell them that they shouldn’t argue? Why’s it different for me? It’s just an opinion, and I’m perfectly receptive to him replying to me and telling me why I’m wrong. I don’t mind being wrong. It happens a lot. Furthermore, how is this a “habit”?
James Brady - February 13, 2012
You're right
You weren’t being a dick. I apologize.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Stop being weird about this. He can disagree with people’s assessment of things if he wants to, and he wasn’t disrespectful once.
Tim Burke - February 13, 2012
Yep
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
It just rubbed me the wrong way a little bit
Like when there was a registered dietitian with a MS in nutrition from Columbia and people were critiquing her post.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
It could have been better formatted and make more emphasis on the fact that I'm offering an opinion.
I guess it’s a little matter-of-fact. But the liberties taken to strike things from the record based on common sense and things of that nature sort of set the tone for presenting perceptions.
James Brady - February 13, 2012
That was the thing for me
A lot of it sounded like you were listing facts, when they were opinions.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Well, I'll try and change that around next time.
However, seeing as you listed the lawyer aspect, isn’t that how one is supposed to present their argument? In opening statements, lawyers are supposed to look at each and every member of the jury and say “I am right. I’ll prove to you why I’m right, but everything I’m saying is true.” Sure, he has a better claim to this than I do, but like I said, the tone itself was already there.
James Brady - February 13, 2012
I suppose
But usually both lawyers have passed the bar. :)
In this instance, with his current position as the Commish, his argument has a shit ton more weight than almost anyone, even other attorneys, IMO.
It really didn’t feel ike you were arguing against his post at all. Its seemed like you were just saying what you thought was right. Not really even laying out much of an argument as to why.
But that’s just how I read it.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
Right, and like most tones of most conversations, it was set and followed subconsciously.
I didn’t feel the need to add “in my opinion,” after every sentence. And like I said, I’m more than open for someone to tell me why I’m wrong. It’s hardly an air-tight argument, but then again, neither is his (in my opinion), especially when we’re dealing with terminology that is purposely ambiguous and things like “common sense.”
James Brady - February 13, 2012
the problem with your argument
James is that you don’t address the basic point that Tweedale is making (i.e. literal vs principled interpretation). Simply saying ‘yes but it’s against the rules’ is only true if you interpret the rules a certain way. Tweedale provides a compelling argument for interpreting the rules in a way that would absolve Diaz.
Frankly I’m pretty surprised that this rule (specifically the testing method and thresholds) hasn’t been challenged before this. I’d have thought that the Ross Rebliati fiasco would have prompted the necessary changes from various sports governing bodies years agi.
A bunch of my friends are olympians; I guess I’d better let them know that they should stop having the occasional blunt in between training cycles.
TubbyMcFats - February 13, 2012
That's how I read it, too
To me, it seemed he was basically just saying “rules are rules”.
TheFilt - February 13, 2012
I think you misinterpreted what he was getting at...
His primary point is that, according to both the letter and the spirit of their rules, Nick Diaz’s usage does not qualify as an anti-doping incident and that the only way it would represent a performance enhancing drug taken “before” the fight is if it was actually influencing him during the fight.
This is based on the levels which Diaz presented with which (allegedly) indicate that he was not under the influence on fight night. From the article:
This is central to his opinion on the issue, and is also the reason why he later wrote this:
He was not arguing that it’s common sense that cannabis is not a PED… He was arguing that cannabis that has been already been metabolized and is no longer having any active effect on the fighter is obviously not a PED.
This article is a treatise for relevant cannabis testing on fight night and reasoned application of the regulations, not for removing the rules against fighting while under the influence.
Bloody L - February 13, 2012
fantastic article, i hope Keith Keizer and the NSAC are aware of these facts
darkotto23 - February 13, 2012
Cesar Gracie says he has hired a lawyer
“Gracie said the Diaz camp has hired an attorney, Ross Goodman of Las Vegas, who will help to appeal to the Nevada State Athletic Commission.”
Source: http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/2/13/2795540/ufc-143-cesar-gracie-nick-diaz-carlos-condit-marijuana-drug-test-mma-news
Pattamus - February 13, 2012
Let's Be Honest Here
Logical arguments and facts have ZERO bearing in the Nevada State athletic commission. They are going to do whatever it is they please and there is nothing anybody can do to other than hope for a positive outcome.
CRWHITLOCK - February 13, 2012
sadly
I agree with your view on the NSAC.
The Lethal Haze - February 13, 2012
This is true.
Remember this is the same commission that lets Cecil Peoples judge fights.
I wouldn’t be surprised if these types of fines go directly into the pockets of the top people on the commission… of course the money would be laundered somehow/someway within the system.
MrWiggles - February 13, 2012
Awesome article
Breath of fresh air
kellly - February 13, 2012
Furthermore, I propose that bloody elbow become a mix of news and guest editorials
Everything else is put up as a fanpost – the cream will rise :)
kellly - February 13, 2012
Now that i am away from that god forsaken device known as a phone I can type my full thoughts.
I think the argument presented here is an excellent argument to change the way that NSAC tests for weed. Whether they need to switch to blood tests, or change the amount that triggers a positive test (which they may have already done) or something else, or maybe do both of those to people who have a medical reason to use marijuana.
That said, I’m not sure if it can/will help nick diaz after the fact. Instead of presenting stuff like this before testing positive, Nick took the attitude that the best way to get around the issue was to beat the tests, which leaves him in this situation when something goes wrong.
And a complete aside, it would be hysterical if they had to switch to blood testing because that is the way to figure out if someone is high. I would love to see the reaction from the steroid users if that was the case.
Phildo - February 13, 2012
awesome post
many thanks…
rohedron - February 14, 2012
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