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Bloody Elbow

No Disciplinary Sanction Warranted For Nick Diaz Under A Principled Interpretation Of NAC 467.850

Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.

Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.

This is a guest editorial by Jonathan Tweedale, Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission.

Nick Diaz's recent post-fight positive test after UFC 143 for marijuana has caused many fight enthusiasts to ask: "Why do they test for marijuana anyway?"

The answer to that question, along with a review of Nevada's applicable regulatory provision, suggests that there is no basis for disciplinary sanction of Mr. Diaz unless he administered or used marijuana immediately prior to or within several hours in advance of his fight.

Cannabinoids as Prohibited Substances

Cannabinoids are prohibited substances for fighters licensed in Nevada by virtue of NAC 467.850(2)(f), which incorporates by reference all prohibited substances on the current Prohibited List published by the World Anti-Doping Agency ("WADA").


More On Nick Diaz
In Defense of Diaz's Weed Habit | Diaz Is to Blame, But So Are Meaningless Marijuana Tests |
Diaz Should Be Released By The UFC | Diaz' Drug Test Failure Was Inevitable |White: 'I Am Beyond Disappointed' | Fighters React to Diaz's Positive Drug Test | Nick Diaz Tests Positive For Marijuana


Cannabinoids - specifically, natural (e.g. cannabis, hashish, marijuana) and synthetic delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) as well as cannabimimetics - are included on WADA's Prohibited List. The status of cannabinoids as either legal or illegal under applicable criminal law - or, e.g., ‘legal with a doctor's note' - is immaterial. The determinative fact for fight licensing purposes is that cannabinoids are included on WADA's Prohibited List.

Cannabinoids are only prohibited "in competition". WADA expressly permits the use of marijuana and other cannabinoids outside of competition. Nevada is no different. A random, out of competition positive test for marijuana should not engender disciplinary sanction under the NAC's regulations.

More after the jump.

SBN coverage of UFC 143: Diaz vs. Condit

Star-divide

The Regulatory Ambiguity: "Before"

NAC 467.850(1) provides that the administration of or use of any prohibited substance "either before or during a contest or exhibition" is prohibited.

The obvious question is this: how long before is "before", under NAC 467.850(1)? A day? A week?

Media commentators have correctly pointed out that the presence of metabolites in a sample taken on fight night is consistent with the last "administration of or use of" the prohibited substance having been many days if not weeks earlier.

Is the use of marijuana potentially weeks in advance of a fight a violation of NAC 467.850(1)?

(Parenthetically, no similar question exists for organizations that strictly apply WADA's Code, as the Code expressly imposes an irrefutable presumption that an anti-doping violation has occurred wherever a Prohibited Substance or its metabolites are present in an athlete's sample. Nevada has no similar rule in its regulations.)

"Before" - The Fixed Interpretation

One might think that the obvious analog to marijuana is alcohol. The same regulatory provision that prohibits the administration of or use of marijuana also prohibits the administration of or use of alcohol (i.e. NAC 467.850(1)). In the case of each, the prohibition is on using "before or during" the contest or exhibition. If a fighter taking a drink seven days before a contest or exhibition has not used alcohol "before" the contest or exhibition, then we know that "before" denotes a time period of less than seven days. Perhaps it is substantially even less than that - two days, or maybe even 24 hours. If so, then "before" means just that for the purpose of all Prohibited Substances.

One could object as follows: The problem with this interpretation of "before" - where "before" denotes a fixed period of time applicable to all prohibited substances (the "Fixed Interpretation") - is that such interpretation fails in its treatment of prohibited substances that are performance enhancing. If "before" meant a fixed period of time (say, seven days, two days, or perhaps a day), then NAC 467.850(1) would permit fighters administering steroids, amongst other performance enhancers, up to seven/two/one day(s) in advance of a fight. And that is untenable.

The objection is partly misplaced. Steroids and many other performance enhancers are prohibited even out of competition - their use is prohibited at all times (unlike marijuana and alcohol). However, the objection correctly identifies that "before" must mean something different as applied to different prohibited substances, and this undermines the Fixed Interpretation. Also, the Fixed Interpretation is unable to distinguish between the consumption of different quantities of a given prohibited substance.

"Before": The Principled Interpretation

A better, more principled approach involves an examination of the rationale for the inclusion of a substance on the Prohibited List in the first place.

If we understood the rationale for inclusion of a substance on the Prohibited List, then that understanding should guide our understanding of the timing of its use that would justifiably be deemed to constitute an anti-doping violation. I refer to this as the "Principled Interpretation", as it interprets the meaning of the relevant anti-doping regulatory provision in light of its principled underlying rationale.

However, to apply the Principled Interpretation there is a preliminary question that must be answered: why is any substance included on the Prohibited List?

Criteria for Prohibited Substances: Application to Cannabinoids

Article 4.3.1 of WADA's Code provides that WADA is permitted to consider a substance for inclusion on the Prohibited List if WADA determines that a substance meets any two of the following three criteria:

1) the substance has the potential to enhance sport performance;

2) the use of the substance represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete; and

3) WADA has determined "that the Use of the substance or method violates the spirit of sport described in the Introduction to the Code."

The Principled Interpretation requires that we evaluate how these criteria apply to the class of prohibited substance under consideration - i.e. cannabinoids.

First, as a matter of common sense, we can knock (a) off the list immediately as entirely inapplicable.

Second, does (b) apply? Because WADA expressly permits marijuana use outside of competition, the only "actual or potential health risk to the athlete" engaged by this prohibited substance is "in competition" risk - i.e. an athlete competing under the psychoactive and physiological effects of marijuana. It follows that the rationale for inclusion of (b) in the List only justifies prohibition of cannabinoids immediately before a contest or exhibition.

That leaves the third condition, (c). This criterion is puzzling. On its face, "the spirit of sport" appears to be an empty place-holder, devoid of objective content, included only to serve as a vehicle for WADA to insert a non-evidence-based value judgment.

Does WADA imbue "the spirit of sport" with any semantic content in its Introduction to the Code? WADA's attempts to do so are limited to describing the "spirit of sport" as, alternately:

  • "what is intrinsically valuable about sport";
  • "the essence of Olympism";
  • "how we play true"; and
  • "the celebration of the human spirit, body and mind".

But this is just purporting to define one empty moralistic expression in terms of other, equally empty moralistic language.

Perhaps one could reasonably say that, regardless of what "the spirit of sport" might mean, it might violate the spirit of sport to use a substance during competition that represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete. So, by virtue of one and the same underlying fact (the health risk to the athlete competing under influence of a substance with psychoactive and physiological effects), cannabinoids arguably satisfy two out of WADA's three criteria.

Cannabinoid use prohibited only in cases of in-competition psychoactive and physiological effect

The Principled Interpretation dictates the following conclusions:

  • Cannabinoids are included on the Prohibited List because competing while under the psychoactive and physiological effects of cannabinoids both:
    • represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete; and
    • violates the spirit of sport (in the limited sense noted above); and therefore:
  • A fighter administers or uses cannabinoids "before" a contest or exhibition, under NAC 467.850(1), only where he or she is under its psychoactive and physiological effects during the contest or exhibition.

Marijuana metabolites are not evidence of an anti-doping violation

If an athletic commission wishes to enforce this rule, then it must tailor a test that will determine whether a violation has actually occurred. As is widely known, urinalysis casts too wide a net to tell us this.

That cannabinoid metabolites are found in a fighter's sample is consistent with the fighter ceasing to use a month before, a week before, or a day in advance of the contest. Heavy users have been documented as testing positive over 46 days after the most recent use. (See, e.g., Ellis GM, Maun MA, Judson BA, et al. Excretion patterns of cannabinoid metabolites after last use in a group of chronic users. Clin Pharmacol Ther 1986;38:572-578; and Smith-Kielland A, Skuterud B, Morland J. Urinary excretion of 11-nor-9-carboxy-delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabinoids in frequent and infrequent drug users. J Anal Toxicol 1999; 23:323-332.) None of these time periods are instances of use "before or during" the contest - as the psychoactive and physiological effects of marijuana would no longer be in effect.

Accordingly, if the Nevada Athletic Commission's only basis for issuing a complaint against Nick Diaz is metabolites revealed by urinalysis of a sample collected on fight night, then it is unlikely the Commission has sufficient evidence to prove a violation under a Principled Interpretation of its regulations.

Even if the interpretation of Nevada's regulation mandated by the Principled Interpretation is mistaken, the rationale-based analysis is still intact. Any disciplinary action levied against Mr. Diaz would have no rational basis in the principles underlying a defensible anti-doping regime unless there is evidence Mr. Diaz was under the effects of marijuana on fight night.

Regulators and fight sport enthusiasts alike can, of course, hope and expect that Nevada's regulators do not slavishly adhere to their past practices and instead re-evaluate the need to interpret and apply their anti-doping rules in light of the rationale underlying a principled anti-doping regime.


Jonathan Tweedale is a litigation trial lawyer in Vancouver, British Columbia, and a Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission, an advisory body to the City of Vancouver. The opinions expressed in this article are solely his own and do not necessarily represent the collective opinion of the VAC.

29 recs  |  257 comments

Comments

Could

Should perhaps, there’s that argument.
Won’t according to their own precedence.

Interesting

And highly informative.

I'll take odds that this argument won't fly

Wish it would, but Diaz is S.O.L. Interesting article.

not if he hires jonathan tweedale

If it does fly, Nevada will amend the rules. The article points out that WADA says that presence of metabolites is sufficient to establish use, and his argument hinges entirely on Nevada not explicitly stating the same. No way anyone involved would be okay with allowing that situation to continue once it came to their attention.

This is fantastic. Holy shit.
yeah, this bloody elbow fellow can write!
Yeah sometime they dun good stuffs.
Nick Diaz should hide you for his hearing.

That is a fantastic article. If whoever his lawyers are for a potential hearing don’t use these points here, then they are not doing their job.

*hire, not hide
Do both

The state’s opening argument concludes and then Nate rolls in a big cake and Nick puts on his robe and wizard hat.

BOOM!

Silence will fall when the question is asked.

How the hell did Doctor Who make it to BE?

I’m not sure how to feel about this.

He does travel all of space and time…

Shit. I had that coming.

I’m not a fan of that show, but that guy was way better than Matt Smith or whatever the new one’s name is.

Hey baby, are you Nick Diaz's NSAC disciplinary hearing?

Because you’ve got one year suspension written all over you.

…damnit.

Seriously though this is a state regulatory body. They’re not going to give away the chance to take money from someone.

Excellent article

Seeing as you are a Commissioner with the Vancouver Athletic Commission, do you have any first hand experience with a situation like this?

Wow

This puts a whole new spin on things.

I think this is the way this will play out. Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer on hand along with his doctors. When he was last popped MJ was illegal. It is legal today for Nick. There is no way for the commission to determine when he used and the wording is very loose. I imagine the outcry will be deafening if Diaz gets off with just a fine but I think that’s how it plays out

i thought you were kidding when you said

‘Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer.’
but apparently you werent.

Of course he is going to have a top notch lawyer. If you don’t think Cesar is on this in every way then you dont have a clue. He is going to have a team ready for that hearing that will be tops on this. His pay, not only Nick’s, depends on it.

I hope you are correct.

But I have to admit to thinking the same as gspmademegay.

Don’t you think it’s more likely that Diaz doesn’t show up and the commission admits they were ready to let him off the hook, as long as he provided this argument, but since he didn’t show up, 1 year suspension??

I think that is more likely.

No, I don’t think that is likely at all. Since the press conference fiasco Diaz has been everywhere he was supposed to be. Whoever it is he paid $100k to stay on top of things for him did his job. Who knows when he smoked weed, that’s another issue. But, if Diaz is not retiring he will be there and he will be there with a team that Cesar will assemble. Say what you want about Cesar but business wise he is very smart. Nick will barely have to say a word.

You do know that he never paid anyone $100k to take care of things, right?

Cesar told Mauro Ranallo that was rubbish.

It’s irrelevant if he paid someone or not. The point is that since the press conference fiasco he has been everywhere he was supposed to be. I don’t think that the athletic commission hearing will be any different.

Thats been like 5 things

Wrong.

For $80 000

something tells me that Diaz is there 5 minutes early in a pressed suit…

the same way that cesar made sure nick showed up for his press conferences?

Did Nick miss anything for the Condit fight?

People who I generally trust keep saying he missed a few flights and Countdown appointments.

They said on the Primetime show that he missed three flights to Vegas for the fight. But, he was still on time for all of his pre-fight activities. Missing Countdown interviews is not that big a deal. He’s in the middle of his training and they have to be deferential to his schedule during that time.

You just completely contradicted yourself.

No. I didn’t. He can miss a flight and still be on time for his commitments. Dana said Nick did everything that he was asked to do for the Condit fight. He didn’t for the GSP fight.

1. He met all his obligations.
2. Uh, okay, so he missed Countdown tapings.
3. Uh, it’s okay because “it’s no big deal”.

The Countdown takings aren’t scheduled press conferences or public workouts. It’s a producer saying we want to interview Nick at 3pm, 3 comes and Nick says “Fuck that, I’m going on a run, I’ll talk to them later.” It’s a completely different scenario. Apples and oranges.

The UFC pays for production of Countdown shows. When you don’t show up for scheduled appointments (and it wasn’t “I’m going for a run”, it was “I’m not getting on a plane a bunch of times”), you’re not meeting your obligations. End of story.

First, You are going off of hearsay regarding the Countdown issue. Second, the flights had nothing to do with the Countdown show. Those interviews were done prior and in Lodi. He missed flights heading to Vegas for the fight but was still on time for his first event in Vegas. If Nick completed all the interviews he was required to for the Countdown show he did what he was obligated to do. They have to work to his schedule during his training time, not the other way around. So if he misses an interview but makes it up later he’s doing what he supposed to do. End of story.

Cesar Gracie lied.

Obligations include more than press conferences. Not sure if you’ve ever flown before, but when you book a flight, you’re supposed to be there for the flight. According to the Primetime show, he missed three flights. That’s ridiculous. Where was Nick top notch manager, Caesar?

And I don’t know what would make you think Caesar and Nick would show up at the hearing with some top notch legal dream team. I’ve never seen anything they’ve ever done that would make me believe they would even show up.

They got Nick a UFC title shot

against the biggest draw and most popular fighter in the sport right now, with a huge contract.

These guys aren’t stupid.

Yes I’ve flown many times. Condescend much? Who cares if he missed the flight going from SFO to Las Vegas? They run almost by the hour. It’s like catching the next train. They said on the Primetime show that he arrived in time for his obligations. That’s all that matters.
As far as him showing up for the athletic commission hearing, he showed up for the one related to the Gomi fight. And now he has money, quite a bit of it. That changes things. I think it is ridiculously naïve to think that he would just do what he has done in the past.

I'm almost 100% sure

The UFC had Nick on their own jet to avoid any problems, too.

My thoughts exactly
Who cares if he missed the flight going from SFO to Las Vegas? They run almost by the hour. It’s like catching the next train

Even in Portland, there’s 30 flights to Vegas a day and it only takes about an hour.

I imagine its a 30 minute flight or less from SFO.

It’s crazy people getting up in arms because he missed a flight but was still on time for what he needed to do in Vegas. Guess what? He forgot to pack his toothbrush too. What an asshole!

Its weird

He sets something off in people, hate him or love him.

I was thinking Reno when I said 30 minutes, LAS is like an hour or so flight.

Yeah, it’s about an hour. You can actually get a private jet for around $3k-5k and have it leave when you want. It’s not a bad deal since he has his team flying with him as well and he can smoke on the flight.

I could care less whether Nick Diaz misses his flight. The point, just as pointed out above, is that you are making the claim that after the two no-show press conferences, Nick was on point and was everywhere he was supposed to be when he was supposed to be there. Then, without even taking a breath, you point out that he did, in fact, miss a few flights, but those don’t count. It’s silly.

What’s silly is you saying you don’t care if he misses his flight and then using it to make your point that he didn’t live up to his obligations. Nick was not obligated to get on the flight he missed. He was obligated to be in Vegas by a certain time, which he was. What point in there are you missing.

Has any MMA-athlete ever had legal representation in front of the comission? Chael didn’t. Overeem was on the phone all by his own as far as we know. Did Barnett have anybody with him? If so, I don’t remember him consulting his counsel. But Nick Diaz of all people will bring a lawyer? I say: no. He’ll bring Cesar, because Cesar will have to bring him, I’d guess.

Did Barnett have anybody with him? If so, I don’t remember him consulting his counsel.

I thought Barnett walked out of his hearing because he didn’t have a lawyer and was going to retain counsel?

This is true

And then he never returned, did he?

No, but he likely will if he moves over to the UFC. I don’t see them going commission hunting for Barnett so Barnett will have to get an attorney and go before the commission. Most of the time the athletes have their attorney with them if they are trying to make a case. If they are just showing up to receive their punishment, like Thiago Silva, they don’t bother. Otherwise, they have representation with them. And Nick has a case here. I’m sure his attorney will be with him and will mount a defense.

Like Haze said, Barnett ended his hearing to get representation. Sonnen had his lawyer with him.

Sonnen had his doctor with him. But a lawyer? Really? I do not remember that at all.

His attorney, Steve Thompson, was with him. Go back and look at the videos or transcripts.

Damn, totally missed him then. Moot point anyway since somebody posted a link stating Diaz has indeed hired a lawyer (or Cesar Gracie more likely). So you were double-right ;)

Sherlock also had a lawyer.

Sherlock is what the cool kids call Sean sherk.

And, Boom,
Gracie said that Diaz has retained Las Vegas attorney Ross Goodman for Diaz’ appeal before the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

<Diaz, naturally, will have a top notch lawyer > Does that mean Nick has a Honda for sale?

Maybe he'll use some of few hundred grand he just got

Or from the other few hundred k he earned a few months ago?

Exactly. It’s amazing to me people think that he won’t show up with top representation. Money changes things.

The man explicitly rambles on about 6 figure lawyer fees

I also think its safe to say that Cesar probably didn’t negotiate a 7 figure contract out with the UFC by himself either.

excellent post
If Nick uses this argument to escape suspension, he should just give you something like $50,000 on GP.
Someone point Ceasar Gracie's Twitter to this article

I don’t think Diaz’s representation is up to snuff with information like this. They are too busy getting high and arguing judges score cards.

YESSSSSSS

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

A member of the Vancouver AC defending Diaz getting toasted, BIG SURPRISE!

He probably sold Diaz the weed in the first place!

loljustkiddingdontbanme

Seriously though, this article looks like a smart person wrote it. Will read later.

There's also the Ross Rebagliati precedent.

In 1998, Ross Rebagliati won the gold medal (in snowboarding giant slalom) at the Nagano Olympics. He tested positive for THC, and was stripped of his medal. He, however, argued that marijuana wasn’t actually on the list of banned substances, and the IOC eventually gave him his medal back.

So, if Nick can successfully argue, as Jonathan Tweedale suggests, that marijuana cannot be on the list of prohibited substances (because it does not satisfy two of the three criteria in Article 4.3.1), then the Rebagliati precent clearly shows that he cannot be sanctioned for using it.

but weed is on the list now. it wasn’t whenever Ross competed. he won because he could prove it wasn’t on the list. arguing it shouldn’t be there is a lot harder.

interesting take. hopefully the end result of this saga is a new look at how the commissions test for weed.

fanned phone. I have no clue why this comment is here.

rec’d it regardless.

it is thoughtprovoking i’ll grant you… hmm… yes… rec

And the punishment to consider...

If the NSAC is unlikely to be willing to amend their rules, Diaz’s representation might have better luck, arguing against anything but a minor punishment.

I mean, based on the argument presented here, the legal status of his usage, and the lack of effect on the fight, I think if Diaz shows up with his MMJ recommendation he has a compelling argument for no fine if he pleads no-contest to the charge.

If Diaz is serious about his retirement, then they’re only trying to avoid fines…

Informative. But holy shit, this is exactly why I never went into law.

Excellent analysis by someone who knows what he is talking about. Well done.

Dollars to donuts Diaz STILL gets suspended and fined though.
this is great

This is why Bloodyelbow is the best place to read about mma and discuss it.

Informative for sure. But I have a problem with any lawyer just sluffing off something like this so easily:

First, as a matter of common sense, we can knock (a) off the list immediately as entirely inapplicable.

I’m not saying that weed is a performance enhancer. I’m saying that there’s not definitive proof that it’s NOT. No lawyer in his right mind uses “common sense” as a legitimate argument. It seems that he said it in this way to just try and ignore the issue there.

The "Duh. It's common sense, stupid" argument is perfectly valid.

when I am talking to my little shit of a brother :)

hahaha!

The comment alert popped up that “Tim Burke” had made a new comment and I was all like…..

“oh yeah, can’t wait to see how he dismisses this”

….and then you hit on the one point in the article that I also thought “waiiiiittt a minute…”

There is for sure no definitive proof that it isn’t a performance enhancer. I think it actually has a higher chance of being one than not, since logiic would dictate that any positive, “performance enhancing” effects would be hidden by regulators and lobbyists who wish to keep the drug illegal.

If this is a valid defense for Nick, I’m all for it. I never touched on my stance in regards to weed in MMA because it had nothing to do with what I was arguing at that point. It was a completely separate issue, which many didn’t seem to understand.

Either way, what Tweedale is saying is very interesting and I like it. It was just that one point that slipped me up because it’s completely glossed over.

I was kind of teasing you.

Since you took a fairly reasonable stance on how Diaz should be dealt with and were singled out as the poster boy for irrational fanboy hate.

I know, I didn’t mean to direct that at you. It was just a convenient lead-in to get the point across. : )

I just cannot see how marijuana is a performance enhancer. I’ve heard some people say that it is because it allows people to tolerate more pain than they normally would, which isn’t true, and even if it was, it would be completely outweighed by the decrease in reaction time and concentration.

I could almost see the argument for it being a training enhancer, as people who smoke up when training will sometimes hit the gym long and hard, but I don’t see how training harder translates into “performance enhancing”… I mean, some people do that without the benefit of weed anyway. I will say this: I heard that Michael Phelps eats something like a 10,000-calorie diet when training? I’m sure MJ helps accomplish that. I know there’s no way I could eat 10,000 calories in a day without it (probably not even with it).

its actually prohibited

out of concern for the fighters’ safety, don’t want people fighting impaired.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Even if it is performance enhancing

It is not banned when out of competition. So the same logic applies. Unless they can prove he was under the influence during the contest, Diaz should not be sanctioned. Not saying that is how the commission will rule, just noting that whether Marijuana is a performance enhancer or not has no bearing on the conclusion of the post.

“I’m saying that there’s not definitive proof that it’s NOT.”

By the construction of the argument, this is an incoherent statement.

I used a double negative because I’m tired.

Is there viable proof that weed is not a performance enhancer? I’m saying if a lawyer is going to present an argument, you need to have viable proof to satisfy all three points mentioned above. “Common sense” is not a valid argument.

Who has the burden to prove that a substance is not a performance enhancer?

It was my understanding that NSAC doesn’t believe that marijuana is a performance enhancer, so it seems unlikely that Diaz would even have to argue that point. Hasn’t Kizer expressly said that it’s a safety issue for the fighters?

But if the commission wants to punish the guy

they will do so unless the denfense can come up with some proof that Weed does nothing to help a fighter in the cage. SO, yes they will probably have to come up with something if they want to use that argument.

I don't think that's right

The commission prohibits the use of marijuana in competition, but it is my understanding from a Kizer quote I saw floating around here that it isn’t even the NSAC’s position that it’s a performance enhancer.

Maybe so, but if they feel he should be gone for a year and Nick tries to bring up

the argument that the stuff does not help it is possible that the commission will push for proof if only to make the defense produce it. Knowing full well that it is a hard thing to prove one way or the other.

The defense can produce the Kizer quote though and I’m very sure, if they absolutely need to, they can also get a medical expert to testify on their account.

Well, the three points are in regards to how WADA views individual things for inclusion into their prohibited list. NSAC is following WADA protocols, right? Kizer’s stance on weed doesn’t really matter. If it’s on WADA’s list, it’s on NSAC’s. Two of the criteria need to be met to make WADA’s list. He’s arguing two and three well. He’s just ignoring one.

But it doesn’t really matter, does it? He is just formally examining if weed should be on the list in the first place and concludes, that yes, it fulfills positions 2 & 3 from a certain perspective. He then goes on to say that by the spirit of why MJ is prohibited the rule should only apply if Nick had consumed the substance shortly before the fight or all possible effects would’ve worn off. So, since he basically admits that it can be on the WADA-list under the sketchy criteria they offer, it doesn’t really matter if it is a PED or not. What matters is the distinction made between “before competition” (for weed et al) and “outside of competition” (for the “real” PEDs) and the interpretation of “before”.

First of all, proof is a mathematical term. Science deals with evidence.

Secondly, you cannot disprove a negative. The claim is that marijuana is a performance enhancer. It is up to the person making that claim to provide the evidence, otherwise the claim is rejected.

luke droppin the hammer
hey pipes...

check your hotmail…we’re waiting on you for the waiver wire to begin.

I’d love to hear the argument that marijuana is somehow a performance enhancing drug, because even without using common sense (which is actually what many laws are based on, have you ever heard of the reasonableness standard? Think twice before you try to say what a legal professional does or does not do if you don’t know what you’re talking about), medical science essentially proves that marijuana could not aid in combat sports. Nearly every piece of literature on the subject agrees that motor function is impaired while under the influence of cannabis, which means reaction time is slowed as well as multiple other debilitative effects. If anything, it’s a performance inhibitor, so maybe next time some common sense would do you good.

Think twice before you try to say what a legal professional does or does not do if you don’t know what you’re talking about

Burke’s comment was perfectly valid. The lawyer glossed over it, so it was reasonable to question why, and what good would it do to say “it’s common sense” in court as a defence.

medical science essentially proves

I’m not a lawyer, you’re right. And my tone was a little harsh, I agree. I shouldn’t be talking from a point of complete understanding of what an attorney does if I’m not one. But the term “essentially proves” is as bad as “common sense” to me. Loose justification of something you CAN’T prove..

Just my opinion.

Look, if an entire library of peer reviewed articles on the subject of marijuana and it’s effects on the human body and brain are not enough to prove to you that it is not performance enhancing, I don’t think anything ever will.

I already said about that I didn’t think it was a performance enhancer. I’m referring to arguing it to WADA, as he’s talking about above.

I call your "peer reviewed articles" and "medical science"

and raise you

“The Beatles”

"Loose justification of something you CAN’T prove.."

Science can’t “prove” ANYTHING.

But you can't prove he was stoned during the fight.

Hard to be a preformance enhancer if you are sober.

Can’t prove he wasn’t. That’s the problem. Burden of proof will be on him.

Why?
Burden of proof will be on him.

In criminal or civil law, its the other way around.

This is a confusing area. I'll pop in later.

You can prove he wasn't through blood tests.
And you can't prove that magic pixies don't exist.

Logical fallacy.

He agrees with you :P

You guys are on the same side of the argument.

I don't think so...

because I would never make the argument that someone is wrong because they can’t prove a negative.

I think he's saying what you are

Just wording it weirdly.

Nope. He really isn’t.

Uh....but the burden of proof is on the person trying to prove it.

i.e if NSAC says he is stoned during the fight, they have to prove it. Innocent until proven guilty.

is blood from that night sitting around with any sort of reasonable chain of evidence?

An article came out in the British Medical Journal this past week finding that drivers under the influence of cannabis are 2x as likely to have an accident than those not on weed.
That’s the kind of performance enhancement I need. The ability to not know where I’m going and run directly into a punch

1st this Wasn’t “A random, out of competition” test it was a fight day test
2nd who cares what a stoner from Vancouver thinks lol

good luck w/ that

bet it won’t fly one bit with those guys…having listened to a few of those hearings…can’t see any way in hell they take this approach and don’t punish him (especially with his brashness towards the law).

Lawyers are good at what they do, but that’s why there are always 2 sides to a story…would love to get an opposing lawyer rebut this one.

I want this to work.

I want to see Diaz fight. I don’t care that he tested positive for MJ. I am disappointed that it is an issue, both on the legal side and on Diaz’ not being able to stop smoking for a month to piss clean and fulfill his contractual obligation, or for setting up in advance an exemption. I am disappointed in the UFC for not being more proactive in facilitating a legal way for Diaz to avoid this situation. You can’t say they couldn’t see this coming.

But I really want Diaz in the UFC. Even though I think he lost to Condit. I want to see a rematch, and to see him fight again soon regardless.

Great minds think alike

I said much the same thing here albeit far less eloquently.

Nice to see some intelligent thought at BE on this topic. Tim Burke and Kid Nate haven’t exactly been beacons of logical thinking on this one.

Out of curiosity, assuming the Commission rules against Diaz, what are the procedures for appeal and what venue would it be under (i.e. still under NSAC)?

Very interesting (and very good work), but I doubt it makes a difference in the hearing.

The problem will be the method of testing: the NSAC uses urinalysis, which fails to account for when marijuana was actually used, but Diaz and co. also can’t prove he DIDN’T use it the same day, so it’s probably a wash. You have to go with the established standard in this case.

Isn't the burden of proof on the NSAC though?

no. thus isn’t court. they set the rules. the rules say weed is on the list. if you want it off the list you are going to have to show why, and that will probably be harder to do after you are busted.

wait, what?

No, I’m saying its on the NSAC to prove he fought with weed in his system, not to show WHY they want to prohibit weed.

that was my question. In the rules, if someone gets popped, is the burden of proof on them to show why they were not on said substance?

as in: is it guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty?

its neither in this case. their rule says weed metabolites = guilty.

ahhh, gotcha- thanks for the clarification.

So what’s the point of the hearing? The opportunity to present mitigating circumstances?

I guess just to make sure and to officially ggive a punishment. this appeal may work, but the state won’t have to prove that pot is evil, they will just point to the list.

Is it at the appeals stage yet? I thought they hadn't done anything yet.

Holy shit this is one big fracaso.

He hasn’t even been charged yet. Nick has 20 days to respond to the complaint.

At least that’s what Kizer said a couple days ago.

Man we really need a handle on what exactly the standard of proof and process is.
I don't think there really is one

Things this ambiguous are exactly why we ave lawyers.

I think what they’re trying to say(Phildo and Van) is that the commission doesn’t answer to anyone, so they are free to interpret the rules how they see fit.

Which is a double edge sword, because they’re letting guess schedule ‘random’ drug tests.

if the NSAC is a branch of the state government

Then they better get their shit in order, because any lawyer worth his salt would trample on these rules.

You'd imagine

The law is so gray, lawyers argue what’s black and white.

This wording he is quoting is especially gray even for in the legal world.

I thought the point of the article

Is their rules don’t actually say that?

they don’t according to this interpretation.

A positive drug test is proof that he had weed in his system.

that's an argument to make.

Its evidence, not necessarily proof.

The burden of proof is on Diaz because he failed to meet the established standard (urine test). The NSAC can’t PROVE that he was under the influence the day of, but he also can’t prove he WASN’T. They could try and take the issue to court, but that wouldn’t be resolved before the impending suspension (retroactive to the date of the failed test) will have already run its course.

Ok, Gotcha.

So the procedure goes: You get popped, that’s enough for the NSAC to suspend you, unless you present circumstances or evidence that you didn’t take roids/smoke weed?

And the time and money to fight it. Chances are Diaz takes his “medicine.”

I have a feeling

Someone(Zuffa or Cesar) is going to find him a bad ass attorney, they’re going to lay out a similar argument and get the suspension reduced.

The NSAC and Zuffa has each other’s backs. That’s a huge factor here.

Alistair Overeem made that a little to apparent, IMO.

good point. ideally, that diaz should have applied for a TUE exemption the moment he got his prescription AND he should have submitted an opinion that urinalysis is an inappropriate test for in-competition purposes.

if the beach was in zuffa’s pocket the way people think chael would have coached tuf and the guy sitting on top of Dana’s worst ref ever list at the moment would be nowhere near the octagon.

I think that was a personal thing between Chael and Kizer. Since Chael drug his name into it and essentially called him a liar.

"The burden of proof is on Diaz because he failed to meet the established standard (urine test)."

That’s absurd. You’re claiming that he was high. The burden of proof is on you! A positive piss test is NOT proof that someone was high a day or even a WEEK before they took the test.

That is rationally correct, but this is an issue of procedural standards.

This is how this will be looked at by the government (whether or not it’s “right or wrong” is irrelevant):
1.) The NSAC has standards in place that have been practiced for decades
2.) Nick Diaz was aware of those standards prior to undergoing urinalysis testing
3.) Nick Diaz failed to meet those standards, and this is the second time this has occurred.

The bottom line is, there’s an established standard that states that if you test positive for marijuana metabolites in your urine, you will be fined and suspended. You can argue that the standard is unjust or impractical and should be changed, but that doesn’t change the fact that at the time of the violation the standard was in place.

And it could be even worse: we don’t know what took place between Diaz and the NSAC when he tested positive in 2007; they usually make fighters who test positive explain what they will do for rehabilitation so that they don’t continue to violate the testing policies. Whatever he told them will be brought to light in the hearing. I would be very interested to hear the dialogue that occurred between himself and the Commission the last time he tested positive.

"(whether or not it’s "right or wrong" is irrelevant"

I agree, especially since I was talking about LOGIC, not “right” and “wrong”.

Procedural standards?

I don’t see how “procedural standards” would change whether the argument is logical or not.

yeah not to rain on this parade or anything

this litigation lawyer is from Vancouver, BC, CanadaA
although his interpretation seems plausible, this won’t have any precedent with the NSAC, a US-based commission:

1. Diaz already has a well-documented history of drug use, specifically within the state of Nevada
2. NSAC can’t/won’t show mercy on a fighter who tested positive (again) on the main event held by the largest MMA organization on the planet

Here's Kizer on the situation
“The first thing to note is that this on the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) list of prohibited substances. That’s what we follow as our primary source, is the WADA list of prohibited substances, and this is on there as a banned substance. So, that’s the beginning of the process. Whether or not it should be on the banned substances list is a different argument. But, it’s on the banned substances list; athletes know that they cannot compete in competition with that in their systems, as well as all the other substances that are listed on that WADA list. Whether it has any pro or (con) aspects to it, I don’t know. Obviously, I would assume that the main reason that it’s on that list is because it could be a great detrimental to the safety of the fighter using it. Whether there’s also a performance enhancing aspect to it probably depends on the fighter.”

Give the man a biscuit.

He articulates logically what I’ve been writing on t’internet this past week, with reference to the RAW, which I have not.

One could also argue that the use of drugs like alcohol & cannabis are for sure within the spirit of THIS sport. Obviously many practitioners come from backgrounds where a lot of everyday activities are frowned upon, (though I don’t want to discuss religion & morality here) but one of mma’s cornerstones is freedom to think & experiment outside of the rigid confines of existing doctrines.

One could also argue that the use of drugs like alcohol & cannabis are for sure within the spirit of THIS sport.

This sounds so terrible.

Free your mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U22oDUamyAE

I’m not a pothead, and I’m really not all that keen on Bruce Lee. I do, however, dislike the close mindedness that comes out whenever ‘drugs’ are discussed. It sounds exactly like the ignorant opinions trotted out every time someone in public office, or your mother discovers MMA, and decide they don’t like it.

I'm stoned right now

and drink regularly.

Well done.

I think. My point is, there is an idea associated with mma that one should not simply do something a certain way, simply because people tell you to.

My reply was an excuse to link my idea together with Bruce Lee, which by extension also links right back to pot. It wasn’t to suggest that you were actually ignorant.

Incidentally, there are some mashups of that monologue with the jump scene from the matrix, which is double good.

I was just saying

That it sounds pretty bad for MMA.

Doesn’t reflect well on the sport or the athletes IMO.

Yeah, I kinda figured.

I can totally see your point, but I believe it to be true. It shouldn’t have to be bad for mma. Weed & alcohol are more mainstream than football. It’s pervasive. Hell, I just watched an old romcom – the characters get shitfaced, and there is implied pot usage. It’s not done in some awful clichéd fashion, the only thing keeping that movie from being a U is the alcohol. And the phonesex. ok maybe a 12.

The fighters are people too. SUre, the top guys might have lots of coaches, and seem to live an entirely sport-driven life, but they’re people too. For all people go on about what fine-tuned athletes fighters are, mma isn’t formula 1.

Paul Daley staggering comically sideways probably had far more to do with him failing to breathe in the midst of the insane exchanges with Diaz than him getting tired.

It’s like if I get really plastered, I sometimes don;t feel right for a few days afterwards. That usually isn’t the case though, yet if a few rugby players have some beer after a match, then obviously that’s why they fail to win the world cup. Right. I have complete;ly lost the point of whatever I was talking about here.

the paul daley thing that you're referring to

that was a liver shot

Already starting a minor shitstorm on the UG, the title is making people think he wasn’t sanctioned.

proving that the UG doesn't have the sharpest knives in the drawer
first comment, long-time reader

THC can remain in your system for weeks at a time. There is no reliable way to test for THC that has been consummed within hours. Cannabinoids are on the prohibited list.

The choice seens simple: keep the ban with the present method of testing or do not test at all since there is no reliable way to determine accurately (within a legal frame) as to when the THC was consummed.

This is from NORML

So we probably need verification, but they say that THC levels at or above 3.5-5ng/ml in blood indicate likely impairment

Blood is used to determine alcohol intoxication…. same idea here

Dr Margaret Goodman (That Vada thing) bring up a good point
Marijuana should be considered a illegal substance by commissions because it slows the reflexes and reaction time of an athlete. Therefore, it carries considerable danger in a combat sports fighter.

Note that years ago, the NSAC changed the threshold for testing positive. So, an athlete has to have considerable exposure for them to test positive. That was done because so many were testing positive with no recent use.

The truth is also that fighters are supposed to compete drug free. Not all the substances tested for on these panels are actual illegal substances, but prohibited for fighters because they create an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

You would be surprised how many commissions that test do not release results. So, who knows who has tested positive in other states with well-known athletic commissions. It isn’t that the fighters are clean there, it is that there is no public reporting or hearings.
Too bad the rest is opinionated drivel
"Note that years ago, the NSAC changed the threshold for testing positive. So, an athlete has to have considerable exposure for them to test positive."

But a person’s metabolite level depends on a myriad of factors, like weight, age, body type, the last time they smoked, how often they smoke, how long they smoked consistently before stopping, etc. So one bottom line doesn’t provide an accurate assessment for every individual. Furthermore, “changed the threshold” doesn’t necessarily mean that the threshold is “fixed” (less fighters are testing positive, so…?).

Second hand smoke...

With detection levels set very low then you start seeing false positives from random exposure which get very hard to prove (“I smelled some weed coming from the crowd as they were putting on my vaseline”), like the Canadian snowboarder who had his gold medal stripped:

Rebagliati… had attributed the relatively minute traces of cannabis metabolites in his urine sample to the effects of inhaling second-hand smoke in his hometown of Whistler Mountain, British Columbia.

As for Rebaglati’s claim that he was an innocent victim of second-hand smoke, Videman said that, to date, urine studies are absent on this subject. “Therefore, it is possible things are as he says,” said Viderman. “So, I am glad he got his medal.”

So increasing the detection level serves mainly to filter out actual smokers from athletes who just happened to sit near someone at a party.

That’s where this case gets a bit special: Nick Diaz will not be denying that he smoked (in all probability).

It was legal for him, he was not under the influence on fight night. Then the commissions case then boils down to him doing something he’s allowed to do under the law and their regulations, only doing it a bit too close to the fight (with no effect on his performance). That’s much shakier grounds for punishments.

My guess is that they don’t touch their regulations or rules, but offer Diaz a very mild punishment in exchange for a guilty plea…

"It was legal for him"

I think one could argue that it wasn’t, given that marijuana possession is a federal offense. Just because the state has legalized it doesn’t mean that it is legal. If Abraham Lincoln taught us anything, it’s that the federal government has more guns than the states and they can assert their will upon whomever they choose.

That could very well be true

That’s one thing I think people who are calling Diaz out for not having applied for a TUE seem to forget…

A therapeutic usage exemption would require signing legal documents admitting to a federal crime, as I understand the law. That may mean nothing, but that might also be enough to land him, a visible public figure, into some serious hot water.

Regardless of the rightness/wrongness of prohibition, the current set of laws are complicated, there are lots of ‘gotchyas’, and there isn’t a lot of precedent for things like this… I can totally imagine Diaz’s lawyer recommending he not apply for a TUE.

What I’m curious to know is to what extent that could be a viable defense with the commission… Basically “I wanted a TUE, but my lawyer told me I could go to jail”. Then what?

would that be that much worse than the card he has? or the failed test or the many public comments on the matter?

Is the use of marijuana potentially weeks in advance of a fight a violation of NAC 467.850(1)?

Yes, if it shows up on a test. It really is that simple. It doesn’t matter if it was weeks in advance, when there’s months between fights. Fighting in the UFC and being licensed in particular is a privilege, not a right. When you sign up for Bloody Elbow, you agree to follow the rules in exchange for the privilege of posting here. If I call Kid Nate a fucking mouth breather, he’ll ban me until he’s all out of fucks to give. I lose the privilege if I don’t follow the rules 100%. If I was making $200k a fight before bonuses, I’d stop smoking for months, years. I’d stop drinking. I’d stop having sex (for a time). It’s a privilege where you listen to the rules. The rule isn’t totally that you can’t smoke a day before a fight, it’s that they’ve given themselves broad discretionary power to discipline you if you test with it in your system, whether you smoked the day before or six weeks before. It’s like if I insulted someone Kid Nate knew (plz don’t ban me Nate) … he can still ban the shit out of me because, as it happens, BE has broad discretionary power. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it’s ultimate power and this isn’t a loophole so much as interesting language that would be relevant if there wasn’t the simple “don’t test with it in your system” caveat that supersedes everything.

First, as a matter of common sense, we can knock (a) off the list immediately as entirely inapplicable. Second, does (b) apply?

As already pointed out, you can’t knock (a) off the list due to common sense since it’s debatable, and has been debated for years. And yes, of course (b) applies, since it affects different people differently and has been known to do things like slow reaction time and reflexes.

While I totally agree that it shouldn’t be on the ban list, it is – and reading things the way you want to won’t change it.

To amend my last sentence, I agree that it should be legal, but I don’t know if I think it should be off the banned list. I think that’s beyond me, really. I’m not an expert on pot itself. Don’t feel comfortable saying that

Not to be a dick

But he is the commissioner of the Vancouver Athletic commission and probably a lawyer.

He might know a little bit more about this than you.

Granted .. I never said I knew more than him, no?

I was giving some examples based on how I perceived the rules and situation. I didn’t tell him he’s a fucking moron or anything like that. I’m an expert on totally different things and comfortable with that. Did I need credentials to comment on this?

I just don’t make it a habit to argue with professionals in their field of expertise, especially lawyers.

He posted about something on a forum. I’m replying with how I perceive things. I am not confrontational (I’m not trying to be) and I’m not insulting him or his expert opinion. Did you go and reply to everybody else in this topic who find anything wrong with this and tell them that they shouldn’t argue? Why’s it different for me? It’s just an opinion, and I’m perfectly receptive to him replying to me and telling me why I’m wrong. I don’t mind being wrong. It happens a lot. Furthermore, how is this a “habit”?

You're right

You weren’t being a dick. I apologize.

Stop being weird about this. He can disagree with people’s assessment of things if he wants to, and he wasn’t disrespectful once.

It just rubbed me the wrong way a little bit

Like when there was a registered dietitian with a MS in nutrition from Columbia and people were critiquing her post.

It could have been better formatted and make more emphasis on the fact that I'm offering an opinion.

I guess it’s a little matter-of-fact. But the liberties taken to strike things from the record based on common sense and things of that nature sort of set the tone for presenting perceptions.

That was the thing for me

A lot of it sounded like you were listing facts, when they were opinions.

Well, I'll try and change that around next time.

However, seeing as you listed the lawyer aspect, isn’t that how one is supposed to present their argument? In opening statements, lawyers are supposed to look at each and every member of the jury and say “I am right. I’ll prove to you why I’m right, but everything I’m saying is true.” Sure, he has a better claim to this than I do, but like I said, the tone itself was already there.

I suppose

But usually both lawyers have passed the bar. :)

In this instance, with his current position as the Commish, his argument has a shit ton more weight than almost anyone, even other attorneys, IMO.

It really didn’t feel ike you were arguing against his post at all. Its seemed like you were just saying what you thought was right. Not really even laying out much of an argument as to why.

But that’s just how I read it.

Right, and like most tones of most conversations, it was set and followed subconsciously.

I didn’t feel the need to add “in my opinion,” after every sentence. And like I said, I’m more than open for someone to tell me why I’m wrong. It’s hardly an air-tight argument, but then again, neither is his (in my opinion), especially when we’re dealing with terminology that is purposely ambiguous and things like “common sense.”

the problem with your argument

James is that you don’t address the basic point that Tweedale is making (i.e. literal vs principled interpretation). Simply saying ‘yes but it’s against the rules’ is only true if you interpret the rules a certain way. Tweedale provides a compelling argument for interpreting the rules in a way that would absolve Diaz.

Frankly I’m pretty surprised that this rule (specifically the testing method and thresholds) hasn’t been challenged before this. I’d have thought that the Ross Rebliati fiasco would have prompted the necessary changes from various sports governing bodies years agi.

A bunch of my friends are olympians; I guess I’d better let them know that they should stop having the occasional blunt in between training cycles.

That's how I read it, too

To me, it seemed he was basically just saying “rules are rules”.

I think you misinterpreted what he was getting at...

His primary point is that, according to both the letter and the spirit of their rules, Nick Diaz’s usage does not qualify as an anti-doping incident and that the only way it would represent a performance enhancing drug taken “before” the fight is if it was actually influencing him during the fight.

This is based on the levels which Diaz presented with which (allegedly) indicate that he was not under the influence on fight night. From the article:

Media commentators have correctly pointed out that the presence of metabolites in a sample taken on fight night is consistent with the last “administration of or use of” the prohibited substance having been many days if not weeks earlier.

This is central to his opinion on the issue, and is also the reason why he later wrote this:

Is the use of marijuana potentially weeks in advance of a fight a violation of NAC 467.850(1)?

Criteria for Prohibited Substances: Application to Cannabinoids:

1) the substance has the potential to enhance sport performance…

First, as a matter of common sense, we can knock (a) off the list immediately as entirely inapplicable.

He was not arguing that it’s common sense that cannabis is not a PED… He was arguing that cannabis that has been already been metabolized and is no longer having any active effect on the fighter is obviously not a PED.

This article is a treatise for relevant cannabis testing on fight night and reasoned application of the regulations, not for removing the rules against fighting while under the influence.

fantastic article, i hope Keith Keizer and the NSAC are aware of these facts
Cesar Gracie says he has hired a lawyer

“Gracie said the Diaz camp has hired an attorney, Ross Goodman of Las Vegas, who will help to appeal to the Nevada State Athletic Commission.”

Source: http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/2/13/2795540/ufc-143-cesar-gracie-nick-diaz-carlos-condit-marijuana-drug-test-mma-news

Let's Be Honest Here

Logical arguments and facts have ZERO bearing in the Nevada State athletic commission. They are going to do whatever it is they please and there is nothing anybody can do to other than hope for a positive outcome.

sadly

I agree with your view on the NSAC.

This is true.

Remember this is the same commission that lets Cecil Peoples judge fights.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these types of fines go directly into the pockets of the top people on the commission… of course the money would be laundered somehow/someway within the system.

Awesome article

Breath of fresh air

Furthermore, I propose that bloody elbow become a mix of news and guest editorials

Everything else is put up as a fanpost – the cream will rise :)

Now that i am away from that god forsaken device known as a phone I can type my full thoughts.

I think the argument presented here is an excellent argument to change the way that NSAC tests for weed. Whether they need to switch to blood tests, or change the amount that triggers a positive test (which they may have already done) or something else, or maybe do both of those to people who have a medical reason to use marijuana.

That said, I’m not sure if it can/will help nick diaz after the fact. Instead of presenting stuff like this before testing positive, Nick took the attitude that the best way to get around the issue was to beat the tests, which leaves him in this situation when something goes wrong.

And a complete aside, it would be hysterical if they had to switch to blood testing because that is the way to figure out if someone is high. I would love to see the reaction from the steroid users if that was the case.

awesome post

many thanks…

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