Edwin Figueroa attempts to recover from an Alex Caceres low blow at UFC 143. Image via Esther Lin of MMA Fighting
Nevada State Athletic Commission Keith Kizer has been a popular man in regards to the last UFC pay per view on February 4th. Most people just wanted his opinion and insight on the Nick Diaz positive test issue, but one thing that confused a lot of fans sort of flew under the radar - why did referee Herb Dean take two points at one time from Alex Caceres for an illegal groin kick on Edwin Figueroa? Could he even do that? MMA Fighting tracked down Kizer and asked him about it. Here's what he had to say:
"That's something I asked him about afterward," Kizer said. "We went through that at the post-fight meeting for UFC 143 and he explained himself from that point of view. It was a situation where [Caceres] had done it, [Dean] gave him a hard warning, the low blow wasn't just an accident -- it was gross negligence, to use a legal term. Sometimes accidental fouls happen, but he thought the fighter was being very negligent or very sloppy, so he gave him a very hard warning and then very soon afterward he did it again. This was a straight-on kick where the fighter had a lot of control over it, he kicked him very hard, the guy was very hurt, you could hear the kick, you could see his reaction when he landed the kick so you could see he was really hurt. The kick was one he could very easily control and the fighter didn't seem to care."
...
"If you want to take two points away you can as a ref, you have that discretion. It's very rarely used -- I think it was only Herb's second time ever," Kizer said.
Kizer discusses more of his interaction with referees in the piece, which is quite interesting. You can check it out here.
0 recs | 140 comments
I don't agree
I strongly dislike people making judgement calls on things that are up for interpretation. Where Kizer says “The kick was one he could very easily control and the fighter didn’t seem to care.” How are you going to tell us that the fighter didn’t seem to care? Did you ask Alex himself and when he answered go " Eh" and brush it off?
milliondollardreams - February 17, 2012
It’s Herb Dean’s job to make a judgement call in that situation.
Worldisart - February 17, 2012
The referee's job is to make decisions based on his interpretation ...
Alex was thoroughly warned. That means you adjust to reduce the risk of it happening.
KJ Gould - February 17, 2012
He probably should have taken a point away first earlier
before two points.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
Get blasted in the balls a couple of times and then continue fighting and we’ll see if you say that.
attgnp - February 17, 2012
What?
I don’t think he’s saying whatever it is you think he’s saying.
WheelieMonkey - February 17, 2012
Naw man, Dean was out of line with that. Warning, then a point, then a disqualification. He cost Caceres the fight. That call was amongst the worst I have ever seen (Mario’s DQ being the worst.) He had no business taking two points like he did. In a sport where inside leg kicks are legal, pulling that bunk two pointer was pure garbage. I was a little angry over that call. Herb Dean needs to get a bloody grip.
Mr. Socko - February 18, 2012 via mobile
Why not just dq on the second one, for example if the opponent couldn't continue?
Arca MMA - February 18, 2012
meh
he was milking it. He even tried to fake it at one point and Herb wanted none of it.
tkotom - February 18, 2012
When you get a stern warning,
you stop throwing the kick unless you’re sure where it’s going. It’s Alex job to have enough accuracy and control to use it without fouling his opponent. So Herb was without a doubt right to do it. I’d have preferred one point based on precedent, but I like seeing the refs be tough on this sort of thing. A lot of guys play it like they have fouls to give IMO. And you “strongly dislike people making judgement calls on things that are up for interpretation” ??? What? That’s exactly when judgement calls are necessary.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
Um...what exactly did you think the job description for being a ref was like?
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
I'm with you.
Judgment calls should stay in fact-based objective matters like math and science, where they belong. Now who wants to argue over which fractions are bigger than others?
Poorly-worded opener aside, the fighter demonstrates his level of concern in this situation with his behavior. He didn’t adjust his behavior, in terms of not throwing that kick full throttle right near his crotch. Ergo, he did not care enough about the fact that he was fouling his opponent.
I think Dean was a little too cavalier. Part of the problem though is that a three round fight is going to come down to one round a lot of the time, so there’s not a lot of middle ground between letting a guy foul it up versus making it nearly impossible for him to win.
Dodectagon - February 18, 2012 via mobile
If the ref and his oversight ie the sanctioning authority doesn't make judgement calls...
How do you remedy or penalize fouls?
Semi joking suggestion: the opponent gets a free kick to your balls – then you are both equally disadvantaged so it’s fair
Arca MMA - February 18, 2012
Neither one seemed negligent or intentional...
although the first one sounded like a fastball ripping into a catchers mitt. If I remember correctly, I think Figueroa ducked a bit as Caceres threw the second one, and I think that played a part in how bad it was.
It’s hard with nut shots and back of the head shots when the fighters are constantly moving to protect themselves or set up their next attack, and I understand that they need to remain in control, but 2 points, unless he truly believed Caceres was aiming for a low blow seems incredibly harsh, especially for a 3 round fight.
Also, point dedecutions included, I still thought Caceres won that fight. (only watched it once, live)
SteveevaD - February 17, 2012
If you get warned
and do it again, you were negligent regardless of your intentions.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
But that's usually the case with a warning,
and they still only take one point. Then the same night he didn’t deduct any points from Koscheck when he blatantly disregarded Dean’s warning.
I think both cases were wrong, should’ve been one point in both cases.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
I agree that one point is enough in a three round fight.
My point is just that a fighter has to be skilled enough to avoid fouling his opponent with a given technique. If he fouls him once, a warning, and if that doesn’t get his attention and he does it again, take the point immediately. I didn’t mind two points because it was a repeat offense and also had devastating impact on his opponent. Yes it’s a fight and shit happens sometimes, but once you’ve been warned, you either take the inside leg kick out of your arsenal or you don’t miss with it. I was rooting for Alex, and was impressed with him generally, but fouls run rampant out there and I have zero problem with the refs getting tough on the nut shots in particular, and on holding the cage, or pawing open-handed at the opponent’s face as well.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
How do you feel about the inconsistency by Dean on the main card?
Ulf Murphy - February 17, 2012
Not thrilled.
I was initially pretty happy to see him stopping the fight after the last nutshot. He took control in a way refs don’t usually seem comfortable or confident enough to do, established to Figueroa that he had 5 minutes and that he should take his time. And then he took 2 pts., and while it was unusual, I was glad to see that he took points, when so often it’s just warning after warning. But the Kos fight took some of the luster off, and just didn’t quite add up. If you’re taking 2 from Alex, you’ve gotta take one for Kos. Obviously the kick did far more damage than the poke, and I think you do have to take into account the illegal strikes impact on the fight, but he clearly warned Kos several times, and it’s something he has a bit of a history of doing.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 18, 2012
Yup, it’s like Caceres got caught banging Dean’s old lady earlier in the night, or at least put the cock-block down at a club. That was a B.S. call.
Mr. Socko - February 18, 2012 via mobile
He gave Alex a chance the first time when it seemed plenty blatant, and deducted no points.
The second nutshot was just too much. There’s something to be said about punishing gross incompetence to follow the rules.
If this is a new precedent, I like it.
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
It's hard to look at it as some new precedent after the Koscheck fight though
Koscheck was repeatedly pawing his fingers in Pierce’s face before and after the warning. But no points deducted. Honestly, while I don’t agree with the thinking that Figeroua was “milking it” I think the disparity has to do with Figeroua rolling around on the ground rubbing his nuts vs Pierce’s relatively small reaction. And that’s a shitty way to approach if that was the difference.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
We have no disagreement there. At all.
I just am hopeful that refs start taking nutshots into consideration way more, after this, and that it doesn’t turn out to be just an anomaly.
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
For sure
Although, I think nutshots get a lot more attention than other fouls. Drives me absolutely bonkers when the ref will warn a guy 5-6 times in a row about something like grabbing the cage, but never actually do anything about it. I do think things like that can be lightly overlooked if they’re not game-changing the first or second time, for the sake of not disrupting the fight. But when it’s repeated, I’ll never understand why the ref doesn’t do more about it than continuous warning.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
Yeah and the cage grabbing is a lot more prevalent.
Seems like there’s a bit of it in nearly every fight.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
This warning is all you get for grabbing the cage
Has been a peeve of mine from the very early days. How many takedowns were stuffed by a quick grab of the cage when the ref was watching. “Don’t grab the cage” is more listened to now but still when it affects the play, especially in a close match where the takedown may get you the 10-9, it kills me to see it.
I clearly remember refs that would ignore cage grabbing way back when, so I can’t say it’s more prevalent now, but within the confines of the modern mma era maybe it’s on an uptick. I would love to see chronic offenders lose a point though after a couple warnings.
DankNabbot - February 17, 2012
Yeah I'm with you.
Just to see it seriously warned and occasionally punished would be enough. Just feels like a free for all right now.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 18, 2012
Alternatively just make it legal
People say the cage advantages wrestlers vs a ring at present. Legal use of the cage would keep more fights standing. As it is now, the refs essentially allow it without point deductions.
Arca MMA - February 18, 2012
Finger safety?
My feeling is that fingers in the cage is outlawed primarily on the basis of fighter safety, and secondarily on the effect it has on a fight.
Hanging on with one hand while old-school Matt Hughes is trying to rag doll you seems like a recipe for fight-ending finger damage… Not to mention what could happen at heavyweight…
Bloody L - February 18, 2012
I guess so...
I always thought it was to not let people use it to defend takedowns. But if it hurts your fingers you should just avoid grabbing, or let go, no?
Arca MMA - February 18, 2012
I’m not thinking ‘hurt’ as much as I am broken or permanently damaged.
Not that it would happen all the time, but someone heavy like Shane Carwin could probably lose a finger in there if he was unlucky…
Bloody L - February 18, 2012
Yeah I think that the impact of the foul,
played a big role in it, but is that really off the mark? It’s not really a cut and dryed foul until someone is actually impacted by it. I thought he could’ve and probably should’ve taken a point from Koscheck for willfully ignoring his instructions. However, that doesn’t quite compare with throwing another wild kick into a guy’s nuts. There’s no way to completely recover from that.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
I disagree with him.
Negligent? By hitting the other guy accidentally? This isn’t netball..
I didn’t know that fighters had to dance around the other guy.. So they’re allowed to crack each other in the face, rendering their opponent unconscious and likely cause irreparable damage somewhere down the line, but if I accidentally hit your cup, i’m basically going to lose via a 2 point deduction.
How do you know the circumstances of the kick… It all seemed pretty sudden to me. One move from either fighter and that can cause an inside leg kick to turn into a cup kick.
How do you know he didn’t care? Alex has no history of hurting opponents in any way other than the legal one.
If i didn’t know any better, i’d think that Keith Kizer can actually read minds.
The 2 point deduction was absolutely ridiculous, He knows it and everyone knows it. Mind you it was a 3 round fight so that is basically guaranteeing a loss unless you can get the finish. This is the same Keith Kizer that defended the Phan/Garcia decision wholeheartedly.
Maybe just once, he should say “yes we made a mistake and we will try to rectify it next time”… is he so far above that…
tkotom - February 17, 2012
and on top of it, Alex still won that fight imo.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
He won every round.
discoandherpes - February 17, 2012
You know he didn't care,
because he was careless enough to do it again. Once you’ve been warned it’s on you to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Alex failed here, not Herb. Apparently you’d love to see nut shots all day long, since they’re unpunishable in your eyes, but your opinion is crazy. I think one point was enough, but too bad. I hope they implement this on a regular basis. A lot of guys know they can foul a guy at will and not have any repercussions.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
I don't see anyone saying shouldn't have been deducted points
Just that it shouldn’t have been two.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
Apparently you didn't read my comment.
I never said that a point deduction should not have been made.
He should have taken one or at least one at a time. I think everyone will agree with this.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
Yes, I already agreed with you about that.
Just not your characterization of the rule.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
fair enough
it just bothers me that Kizer is so nilly willy about the whole thing..
tkotom - February 17, 2012
Yeah, well I'd love to see more consistency,
so you’re right on there. I just hope this is a precedent setter. Too many guys get away with multiple fouls, including pawing the face and hanging onto the fence, and there’s rarely any points taken. I’d like them to be more aggressive with it all, but it’s definitely harder to justify the Caceres situation when reffing is such an absolute crapshoot right now.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
Yeah agreed.
I’d like to see some variation of the card system, perhaps that’s a bit much to ask but something needs to be done.
The pawing that you mentioned is also a big problem.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
I wouldn't mind that.
Refs are talking to the fighters throughout the fight, so it’d be good to distinguish between general instructions and a red card-type thing, where you know the next offense is a point, rather than maybe just a sterner warning.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
Yeah it makes it more methodical
rather than spontaneous.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
Not really. Even without getting 10-8 or 10-7 scores, you can still win the decision by winning all three rounds. We see 30-27 scorecards all the time, so it’s not like it basically guarantees the loss. Hell, plenty of people thought that Caceres did still win all three rounds (ignoring the point deduction), so it’s obviously possible.
While he lost 2 points for one foul, in total he still lost two points due to two fouls, which happened in two separate rounds. If you land a huge low blow against your opponent, you probably should win that round, right? Of course that isn’t guaranteed, but the deduction seems fair to me since 1) the effect probably won’t be completely gone by the third round and 2) the point deductions would be meaningless if the foul indirectly led to a finish.
But yeah, I really think there needs to be consistency. The fact that Caceres lost two points for fouling after a warning while Koscheck received nothing from the same referee on the same night is completely unfair.
Jeffigatame - February 17, 2012
I felt that he still won anyway.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
What confused me,
was that I thought it was a 10-8 round, so I was thinking maybe at least one or two judges would score it 8-8. He was all over him both before and after the nutshot break, and it was a clearly better round than the other 10-9’s scored in the fight IMO.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 18, 2012
this was more to exactly what I was trying to say in the very first post
I didn’t make my point clear enough but this, absolutely this right here is what I was meaning to say.
milliondollardreams - February 18, 2012
A point for each nut. . .
Seems fair to me, it would only have been one point deducted if he was facing Sonnen,
Jaspawokki - February 17, 2012
Ref takes two points? It’s fine by Kizer.
Ref takes no points? Fine by Kizer.
Early stoppage? Fine by Kizer.
Late stoppage? Fine by Kizer.
Whatever action the referee’s take, it’s Fine by Kizer!
Luke Nelson - February 17, 2012
watch yourself
tkotom - February 17, 2012
I mean, I don't want to pile on or anything but....
Mimic machine gunning your opponent? Fine by Kizer.
Luke Nelson - February 17, 2012
whats going on here?
Ricardo Arguello - February 17, 2012
Akira won
Then went over to his opponent and pretended to be firing a machine gun at him. All the while his coach (Bisping) was shouting at Mayhem to “control your figh’er, Jeh-son!”. Kizer stepped in and told him he’d be DQ’d if he didn’t behave.
wonderfulspam - February 17, 2012
Although that's what did happen.
I think there was some clever editing there to make Bisping look bad.
tkotom - February 17, 2012
Which was fine by Kizer
potato623 - February 17, 2012
Then he pretended he didn't tap
Farthammer - February 17, 2012
that was still the douchiest move
in a season of total douchery. Listening to those guys talk drove me nuts. I ended up watching online and just skipping to fights.
DankNabbot - February 17, 2012
Thinking the same think. Btw what was the other time Herb Dean took away 2 points?
Kefka - February 17, 2012
Dan Lauzon/Bobby Green
MattParker117 - February 17, 2012
this should be recd a lot more
Cunny - February 17, 2012
Herb made a rare mistake that night, but I don’t think it was the 2 points, it was the lack of taking a point away in the Kosh fight.
Kefka - February 17, 2012
This
Horselover Fat - February 17, 2012
This
And this just made the 2 points in the Caceres fight even more ridiculous, imo.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
Agreed
The two point deduction was harsh but ultimately, I can see where Herb’s coming from. Not deducting a point from Kos was terrible – talk about a fighter displaying gross negligence.
wonderfulspam - February 17, 2012
totally
kos went straight back to pawing with an open hand right after his warnings
ridiculous
Cunny - February 17, 2012
I didn't see all the pokes, but the one in the third was mostly Pierce's fault
The slowmo showed that Pierce literally ran his face into Koscheck’s almost stationary hand. I don’t know how so many of you can put the blame on Kos for that.
paythefighters - February 18, 2012
Yes.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
Not even close.
If you want inconsistency, talk Herb Dean’s calls about Cerrone’s blunt force castration of Ed Ratcliffe at WEC 45.
pdl - February 17, 2012
Taking away two points as no place in MMA
In boxing it’s fine, but in MMA it’s a death sentence. He might as well disqualified Caceres.
discoandherpes - February 17, 2012
Not really
If you want to win a normal decision, you have to win two rounds to one. If you get two points deducted, you have to win all three rounds, which happens all the time.
Hell, Sonnen could have had four points deducted against the consensus best fighter on the planet and would still have been only two minutes of stalling from a win.
paythefighters - February 18, 2012
Actually he could have had five points deducted
He had a ten eight round in there somewhere.
Still, with MMA judging, even if you win all three rounds, two points and two bad scorecards and you’re fucked out of a win bonus.
discoandherpes - February 18, 2012
You're creating a pretty obtuse example to rule out the two point deduction
1. Someone commits a blatant foul AND
2. You don’t think it should cost him the fight AND
3. The ref gives a two point deduction AND
4. The guy clearly wins all three rounds to most observers AND
5. Bad judging gives the victim an undeserved round
Fights meeting all those criteria meet what, 1 in 10,000 fights?
There needs to be a threat of a two point deduction. It’s bad enough that a one-point deduction has no effect on the outcome of some fights, or that a foul and a won round is better than a lost round, or worse yet that an intentional foul makes your opponent easier to finish (e.g. Bisping-Rivera).
paythefighters - February 18, 2012
Totally absurd. Caceres was totally remorseful, this wasn’t Bisping kneeing Rivera and then celebrating. Was Caceres’s foul worse then Gonzaga? Then Kos’s endless eyepokes? Then Kongo’s nut shots? What about those fouls made them the worst in UFC history, seeing as there has never been another 2 point deduction? I mean, Caceres was dominating , why in gods name would he do that intentionally and break his own momentum? Bruce lerroy was robbed.
Hutchy - February 17, 2012 via mobile
No.
He was educated.
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
Nice.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
Both of them are full of shit
Bruce leeroy was robbed out that victory he didn’t do that on purpose.. Like I say Bruce leeroy is the future of that division he’ll bounce back
psychoblack - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Bruce leeroy is a fight away from Tachi Palace
MattParker117 - February 17, 2012
2, this last loss was lame and he's a more well-known face at 135
sun yue - February 17, 2012
there aren’t many .500 fighters in the ufc though.
MattParker117 - February 17, 2012
ARE YOU TRYING TO FADE PSYCHOBLACK?
Sugel Mendoza - February 17, 2012
Didn't just try,
he fuckin SUCCEEDED
ElliotMatheny - February 18, 2012
Can you not read!? Are you blind!?
Look at his fuckin’ sig! Now I suggest for you to slap yoself, before psychoblack fades you, and you’re forced to leave BE in shame… AGAIN!
Sugel Mendoza - February 18, 2012
Contrary to his sig,
I maintain that Psychoblack is a highly fadable individual.
ElliotMatheny - February 18, 2012
dr. ransom - February 17, 2012
While refs don’t normally take two points, and I understand the complaints of those that see this as a harsh penalty, I’m ok with Herb’s decision. What he did is well supported by the rules as they are written.
Intentional or not, the man got hit with two clean, loud, apparently hard, and apparently damaging shots square in the junk. Caceres was warned strongly before the deduction. While it’s obviously a judgement call, and he certainly could have been selling it, Figueroa appeared to be hurt pretty badly by the shots. In a case where a fighter is hurt badly by a foul, but can still continue, multiple points can be a way of leveling the playing field, without going to the severity of a DQ.
Additionally, if the ref believes it to be intentional, two points is actually spelled out in the rules.
Nevada Rules: Link
NAC 467.7964 Fouls: Deduction of points. (NRS 467.030)
1. If an unarmed combatant fouls his opponent during a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts, the referee may penalize him by deducting points from his score, whether or not the foul was intentional. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 2 of NAC 467.698, the referee may determine the number of points to be deducted in each instance and shall base his determination on the severity of the foul and its effect upon the opponent.
…
NAC 467.698 Fouls: Intentional. (NRS 467.030)
…
2. If the referee determines that a contest or exhibition may continue despite an injury caused by an intentional foul, the referee shall immediately inform the Commission’s representative and the judges and shall deduct two points from the score of the unarmed combatant who committed the intentional foul.
I still think Kizer’s response here is weird, but I don’t really have a problem with the 2 points regardless.
brainuse - February 17, 2012
This should end any debate about whether or not 2 points was warranted.
I love how there are so many people, who have probably never read any official rule, that are so appalled at the 2 point deduction, when the rules clearly state that it’s perfectly fine.
YPG - February 18, 2012
There's something to be said for expectations...
And traditionally most fighters only get a single point deduction. It’s just like in Football when some obscure rule is flagged: sure it’s in the rulebook, but uncommon calls make even long term fans think “wtf?”.
There’s also the minor dispute over whether this foul was “intentional” or not. I can think of a lot of fights where a fighter has been hit in the rocks more than once without any point deduction, much less two. It seems that Herb was convinced by the sound/movement/reaction that the kicks were of a severe or intentional nature.
Bloody L - February 18, 2012
After a warning
one is on very thin ice with regard to intentionality.
VenusBlue - February 18, 2012
dick kicks should be an automatic point deduction
Stop warning and just take a point away. Guarantee it will be the end of the dick kicking shit .
dbcb - February 17, 2012
How would it end dick kicking when so many them are accidents?
Caceres went for a low kick, and Figueroa lowered his stance and got hit. It’s just unfortunate.
sun yue - February 17, 2012
If you are afraid of a deduction
then you don’t get to trhow that kick.
Simple.
dbcb - February 18, 2012
Or if you're behind on points.
Just start blocking with your dick.
insamniac - February 18, 2012
Cerrone would lose every fight!
Kefka - February 17, 2012
Kongo would be sent into early retirement!
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
So is Alex Caceres gonna get booted?
He’s now 1-3 in the UFC.
RolloTomasi - February 17, 2012
He's performed like a 2-2 fighter, though. He's gonna stick around.
Plus, DW is a little fond of the guy.
Unabomberman - February 17, 2012
He should have been cut after losing his first 2 fights.
But I’m guessing he has naked pictures of Dana or something.
YPG - February 18, 2012
I think 2 points was a little harsh, but it wasn’t just a gentle low kick that hit him in the balls, it was a full power one that hit him very hard. And I find it hardy to have any sympathy for Caceres when he accused Figueroa of milking it after the fight
StevenGiles - February 17, 2012
I think he was milking it.
Especially after he started complaining about a phantom dick kick
sun yue - February 17, 2012
I hate to use the term "milking it" because the shit does hurt...
But the reaction was a bit extreme, and I suspect that had to do with the decision to deduct two which is unfortunate. I will say though, one of the kicks I recall didn’t look bad at all.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
Yeah that was odd. However, the first one sounded really bad and was a definite direct hit. If that had happened to me, if someone breathed out within 10 metres of me I’d probably feel pain in my balls. It could have been that his balls were so painful even the reverb from a low kick could have made it worse
StevenGiles - February 17, 2012
That’s what I think happened too. His gonads were so messed up from those earlier kicks, that when he actually got hit close to there it sort of vibrated up into them again causing pain. I don’t see any reason at all to doubt Figueroa in this one, don’t really get why people want to blame him instead of Caceres. He also tweeted after the fight that the doctor had said he has a “testicular contusion”.
Horselover Fat - February 18, 2012
oh shit, i forgot about the phantom one
that sneaky cunt
was so glad herb called him on it
he deserved the second dick kick for his fraudulence
Cunny - February 17, 2012
Any comment on the Koscheck non-deduction ?
Mongoose44 - February 17, 2012
I thought that was more controversial than than Caceres two point deduction
Mongoose44 - February 17, 2012
Yeah he commented in the full article over at MMA Fighting.
He basically said that as long as the referee explains himself in a way that makes sense, he supports their decision.
He did not consider the Koscheck situation worth discussion with Herb.
Luke Nelson - February 17, 2012
That response is even worse, jesus...
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
Oh okay,
now I’m on board. FUCK YOU KIZER YOU HACK!!!
Kwisatz Haderach - February 17, 2012
on its own, maybe
an hour after the caceres fight, you definitely need to question that
we wouldn’t care too much about the non-deduction in isolation, but in the context of the night it’s important
kizer is a snake for this
Cunny - February 17, 2012
Agreed 100%
Went instantly back to pawing with that open hand after the warning until the eye poke. Just blatantly disregarded the warning.
Violent Newt - February 17, 2012
you read my mind
shame i didn’t see your post before I aped it almost exactly above
Cunny - February 17, 2012
Not only that...
I’m not sure how much the eye poke effected Pierce, but Koscheck really seperated himself from Pierce in the 3rd after the eye poke with the late take down. It was kind of the turning point in the match. The whole thing stinks.
Mongoose44 - February 17, 2012
I wonder about this though
Sticking out an open hand, in and of itself, isn’t a foul. Can Herb do anything unless Koscheck actually pokes the eye again?
VenusBlue - February 18, 2012
I agreed with it. The guy can’t father children anymore. The least you can do is give him the win.
TheLastEmpress - February 17, 2012
He had a testicular contusion
He should still be able to make babies.
discoandherpes - February 17, 2012
I had that once,
First my sack turned black like death. Then the blood formed what seemed like a third testicle. Fun times all around.
Balrog - February 18, 2012
Damn…
Horselover Fat - February 18, 2012
So it would be safe to assume that it severely affected Figueroa’s performance?
Horselover Fat - February 18, 2012
If it affected him that much
Then he should have taken the DQ win.
Lets not pretend like he gave up his back because he got kicked in the dick. He gave up his back because he has a glaring weakness in his game.
discoandherpes - February 18, 2012
No win bonus for a DQ, apparently.
Plus “Do you want to be a fucking fighter” etc etc. Let’s not pretend this attitude doesn’t exist in the UFC.
VenusBlue - February 18, 2012
What's your point?
If you fight hurt, you don’t deserve an extra brownie point. He got a victory he clearly didn’t deserve.
discoandherpes - February 18, 2012
I am trying to explain why he might have chosen to fight on
Sorry if you can’t keep up. Although I see Matt Hamill got his win bonus for the Jones fight, so perhaps I was misinformed on that point.
VenusBlue - February 18, 2012
I still think even with the 2pt deduction, Caceres should have won. He completely outgrappled Figueroa. He might not have finished, but he definitely dominated to earn at least a 10-8 round.
GreyedOut - February 17, 2012
Agreed.
discoandherpes - February 17, 2012
This just in
Herb Dean kills colony of bunny rabbits. Keith Kizer says always hated bunnies.
dribblebib - February 17, 2012
A minority opinion I am sure, but
I think that nutshots and fence grabbing should be legal. If you can’t defend the nutshot, you shouldn’t be fighting…and the fence is there, let the fighters use it however they want.
They are rules that just muddy the water and don’t protect fighters.
icastico - February 17, 2012
Totally. And eye gouging, finger and wrist locks, biting...
All of it. who cares about fighter safety and longevity?
DankNabbot - February 17, 2012
Nah...
I agree with those rules. And head kicks to downed opponents should remain illegal, back of the head as well, etc.. I mean if you are worried about fighter safety, head kicks in general should be out. A nut shot in a cup is not more dangerous for the fighter than many other legal strikes.
It would change the dynamic of the fight significantly.
icastico - February 18, 2012
Cheick Kongo & Donald Cerrone - Champions 2012!
Sugel Mendoza - February 18, 2012
Never been kicked in the nuts, have you?
I sentence you to 2 Cheick Kongo ball shots. We’ll see if you still think they should be legal when you’re on the ground crying.
YPG - February 18, 2012
How about a shin to the dome?
Never said they didn’t hurt. But they are no more dangerous than many other legal strikes. A shin to the dome hurts, a liver shot hurts, a broken arm hurts, a broken nose hurts. The point of a fight is to disable your opponent. A kick to the nuts can do that. So can a kick to the head or the body. But the groin is an area that is given additional protection and a groin kick is not more likely to cause life-long disability / impacts than a head injury.
If I bite you and take a chunk or your body, or gouge your eye out, that is much worse.
Like I said, I know mine is a minority opinion.
icastico - February 18, 2012
MMA is exposed without nerve pinches and pressure points!
I’d pin Jonny Bones to the ground with my thumb and make him bark like a dog until I believed in his subservience!
Kwisatz Haderach - February 18, 2012
Why not use the voice.
Like your mom taught you.
icastico - February 18, 2012
Killing with a word gets dull after a millenium or so...
Kwisatz Haderach - February 18, 2012
If you're kizer you can't keep BElitists happy
If he’d criticised herb’s decision and said it should have been one point, I bet we’d see plenty of “I wonder how Kizer would like to experience getting kicked in the nuts twice by a trained MMA fighter?!!”
Arca MMA - February 18, 2012
He doesn't criticise any of the officials decisions, he blindly agrees.
The guy needs to spend less time whoring it up with the media, clearly he has nothing to contribute.
UncleMax - February 18, 2012
Let's be real
Koscheck didn’t get a point taken away because he’s Koscheck and not a prelim fighter.
discoandherpes - February 18, 2012
I totally disagree
Herb Dean inserted himself into the judging with the two point deduction. Herb all but ensured that Alex would lose the match if a KO could not be secured. Horrible decision by Herb who should know better.
Albino Garcia - February 18, 2012
Or,
the judges could do their job right and score that a 10-8, making it an 8-8 wash, thus a draw.
Kwisatz Haderach - February 27, 2012
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