via allelbows.com
Tonight may be UFC 143, but there is never a bad time to talk about the debate over the placement of Strikeforce fighters relative to their UFC counterparts. In a recent article at Sports Illustrated, Loretta Hunt covers a variety of reasons people may underrate Strikeforce fighters and talks to guys like Luke Rockhold and Tim Kennedy about the stigma that comes with fighting in the "B promotion."
From the article:
UFC fighters haven't exactly helped that cause. Answering a challenge made by Strikeforce light heavyweight Mohammed "King Mo" Lawal earlier this month, former UFC champion Quinton "Rampage" Jackson said fighting in Strikeforce would be a "step down" in his career. In another interview, UFC middleweight Michael Bisping feigned ignorance when asked about critical comments Strikeforce's Kennedy had recently made about him.
"Who's he?" asked Bisping. "I've never heard of him."
...
"Between Jacare, Luke and myself, I think that we could take on seven out of the top 10 guys in the UFC in our respective weight class, but almost all of the media and the fans disagree with us," said Kennedy, who's won back-to-back fights in Strikeforce. "I've said it my entire career that I just want to fight the best guys. Now I add the caveat that now I want to fight the guys that everyone else thinks are the best fighters."
Kennedy said it was frustrating to watch Demian Maia (15-4), who's been recognized on all three rankings lists in the past, lose to unranked newcomer Chris Weidman during the UFC's second FOX broadcast last Saturday. Weidman took the bout on 11 days notice and cut a whopping 30 pounds to make weight for it. Kennedy, who said he's been training to fight at Strikeforce's next event on March 3 should an opening arise, vigorously campaigned for the vacancy and was disappointed that he was "never seriously considered" for it.
Depth is always going to be the issue that holds a fighter back from being elevated too highly in the eyes of many. When Rockhold is having to defend his title against a guy who has never fought at middleweight and has lost every fight of any note recently, it's hard to think of Strikeforce as having the depth to really elevate a fighter. That leaves fans and the media to try to judge relative abilities and we can see that a guy like Rockhold is talented. But, of course, it's difficult to consider him an absolute top tier talent until we see how he fares against other guys on that level.
It is interesting to see Kennedy say that he was campaigning for the shot on Fox against Maia. I have to think he'd have put a hurting on Demian given how bad he looked that night.
0 recs | 34 comments
Rockhold and Jacare definitely have the potential to be top tier in the UFC, but I don’t know about Kennedy. He seems like he’d be an upper level gatekeeper, sort of like Leben and Aaron Simpson.
savik - February 4, 2012
wasn’t there some statement around the time Strikeforce’s Showtime deal was extended that the UFC wouldn’t be poaching any more talent from Strikeforce with the exception of the soon-to-be-folded heavyweight division?
Stanlee - February 4, 2012
Strikeforce
Pretty clear that the guys at the top of Strikeforce are as good as anyone. Nick Diaz, and Alistair Overeem have shown they belong in the mix. Few would doubt that Gilbert Melendez would hold his own. The depth may not be there, but the UFC has a clear policy of disregarding anyone and anything that doesn’t carry their brand. Case in point, check out how the fighters themselves regard Emelianenko. Dana has always called him trash (as he pretty much did Overeem by the way) Werdum rightfully calls his victory over Fedor as the biggest of his career.
rumblybob - February 4, 2012
Coke is quite dismissive of the quality of Pepsi products as well. Mountain Dew > Mello Yellow… Coke’s advertising of Mello Yellow is completely dishonest!
Stanlee - February 4, 2012
If anyone deserves to come over it's Melendez, before anyone else in SF. Guys like Rockhold are gonna have to wait in line.
pud333 - February 4, 2012
As long as there are some good fights and a clear direction, I don’t think these guys should complain unless the pay and treatment is the same as the UFC fighters. Who cares if the public perception is wrong. Strikeforce middleweight seems to be set. Rockhold vs Kennedy should fight with winner fighting Souza vs Brunson winner. Have Robbie Lawler fight Yancy “Frisson” Medeiros and that winner fights Lorenz Larkin(if and when he drops a weight class) vs Villefort or Nate James.
So that’s 3 fights in a row for Kennedy (or whoever wins)
As for Gilbert, that might be a different story. He’s got what, the KJNoons/Thomson winner next then the Fodor/Healy winner (though Fodor/Healy winner will probably or should fight one more time before title shot…I’d do it against a Masvidal/Wilcox winner unless it sets up a rematch)
After that, hmmm, unless GZ gets hot or Bobby Green or Payan make a run, then Gilbert to the UFC might make since…maybe welcoming BJ Penn back to lightweight? (though I prefer BJ at welterweight)
Troop - February 4, 2012
Can get you bigger fights and bigger paydays.
vivero - February 4, 2012
There are some real good guys in that promotion that i'd like to see in the UFC.
Particularly Melendez, Masvidal, Jacare, Rockhold and Mousasi. Sure i’m forgetting some though.
Magaca - February 4, 2012
Tim Kennedy could barely handle Robbie Lawler, he’d get destroyed in the UFC. He’s not that good
Randy Daytona - February 4, 2012 via Android app
He is decent, he is a UFC caliber fighter imo. Gatekeeper-ish
vivero - February 4, 2012
The current deal goes to 2014...after that, they'll likely close shop on SF
Perhaps if the female leagues have been developed enough…SF will become exclusive for that.
But I mean, the SF going into 2012 vs the SF going into 2011 is greatly downsized.
6-8 cards a year vs 14-16
Essentially only having femalw 135 and male 155-205…as opposed to having femal 135 and 145 and male 155-265.
The HW champion and soon the entire HW division, LHW champion, 2 noteworthy MWs(Miller and Le) and their WW champion all plucked from the promotion
they also seem intent on weeding out and ‘killing’ prospects. ‘Feeding’ Jordan Mein to Woodley, giving OSP to Mousasi and Larkin to Mo…instead of the more logical Mousasi-Mo rematch and OSP vs Larkin…with the loser of Mo-Mousasi getting the OSP-Larkin winner perhaps.
Now giving Derek Brunson to Jacare Souza…because god forbid there is a Kennedy-Jacare rematch or a Lawler-Jacare rematch or something.
Basically, they are utterly avoiding rematches, which is all that’s left at the ‘top’ of the divisions in SF…and so too many of the prospects are being forced to step up prematurely.
Chris Groves - February 4, 2012
I wonder if their finances are playing a role in matchmaking
Mo, Mousasi, Melendez, and even Feijao and Jacare have pretty sizable contracts; perhaps they can’t afford to put too many of those guys on the same card or match them up with each other for that reason. I have no idea, but their matchmaking doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
Interesting point
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
It is interesting how Strikeforce brings up prospects
…or lack there of. I understand that they may feel some prospects are ready to move up in competition or they need the ‘sacrifice’ one to one of their big names to hype that big name for the next bigger fight (like Souza fighting Brunson, so Souza can have more hype entering the title fight with Rockhold/Kennedy winner) but you are right.
Similarly in LHW, I’d throw someone like Villente against Calvacante now that Lawal is out for a while, so then that winner could fight Kyle/Mousasi winner for the title. But at the same time they should do fights like Mehmen vs Lima, OSP vs Gracie with those winners fighting each other. Two wins in a row right here should then put that guy in contention and Yoel Romero vs Trevor Smith and Rhadi Ferguson vs someone like Rossborough. and have those winners fight. The guy to come out of here would still need a couple fights to get into contention but at least the prospect would be brought along slow. Have the big names who lose fight each other (Calvacante, Kyle, Mousasi, Villente).
Troop - February 4, 2012
It's hard to feel sorry for them
They signed with Strikeforce, and they have to continue to fight with Strikeforce. If they wanted to be in the UFC that badly then they should have signed with the UFC.
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
Depends on the guy
I have more sympathy for Kennedy, Rockhold, and Jacare than Melendez or King Mo, simply because the former are still working on the contracts that they signed when Strikeforce was independent. I have zero sympathy for Melendez and Mo, who both signed new contracts with Strikeforce after the Zuffa purchase; I’m sure they could have gone over to the UFC (albeit with a pay cut) instead of re-upping with SF.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
Melendez’s contract was reupped when SF was still independent.
bigdmmafan - February 4, 2012
Ah true
Happened a couple of weeks before the sale.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
According to Mo, Zuffa didn’t give him the option of going to the UFC. They offered only a SF contract.
John Nash - February 4, 2012 via mobile
If they knew that Zuffa will eventually buy out SF, I sincerely doubt they’ll sign with Coker.
vivero - February 4, 2012
Even with Kennedy, Rockhold or Jacare
I don’t see the point in complaining. You signed with Strikeforce, so deal with it.
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
Sure
But if you were in their shoes, wouldn’t you be a little worried about spending the best years of your career fighting in an utterly irrelevant promotion for a meaningless belt? I wouldn’t really say they’re complaining so much as they are puzzled at Strikeforce’s seeming lack of a viable plan going forward.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
If I was in their shoes
I wouldn’t have signed with Strikeforce to begin with.
Lets be honest, Strikeforce most benefited people with established names (like Fedor, Hendo or Diaz) that wanted a big paycheck. Back then, if I was a prospect, I wouldn’t sign with Strikeforce. Now it’s kind of the opposite funny enough.
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
And
Athletes who wanted to compete in multiple disciplines (ADCCs, though the UFC’s relaxed their policy now, K-1, sambo, etc.) or multiple promotions. I don’t think either the UFC or Strikeforce does a particularly good job of developing their prospects, though — if it were me I’d stay on the regional scene (MFC, Titan, I guess Dream at this point) until I was sure I was ready to compete against top guys.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
It isn't that hard to get into the UFC nowadays though
Just be in shape and give Joe Silva your number, win a couple of fights and when someone falls off a card, volunteer to jump in.
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
That's precisely the problem
They have so many fights to make and so many guys coming in that they don’t really think about their fighters as prospects to be developed (aside from the very, very top guys like Phil Davis); they make the fights and let the chips fall where they may. A top prospect on the regional scene, however, has a little more freedom to pick and choose fights while fully developing their skills.
Patrick Wyman - February 4, 2012
It is kinda cute that guys in Strikeforce are calling out the UFC guys to come to Strikeforce and fight them
Like anyone is willingly going to take a demotion.
discoandherpes - February 4, 2012
I think Bisping would smoke Tim Kennedy
Shocbomb - February 4, 2012
Michael Bisping would smoke a lot of MWs
Robert V-U - February 4, 2012
I can see where Kennedy is coming from calling him out, but I just don’t see that fight or most fights where Kennedy would be matched up with top 10 MW’s going good for Tim. I do think Tim is a very good solid MW who falls between 12 and 20 of the devision when talking rankings. Even other MW’s I think match up good against Tim who most rank below him like Mamed Khalidov,Kazuo Misaki,Aaron Simpson,etc. All I just named I would pick to beat Kennedy. I just don’t think he has the skills to compete with the tops of the devision ? I agree with the poster above who said Tim at best in the UFC would be higher level gate keeper
Shocbomb - February 4, 2012
It's too bad
Strikeforce has lost a lot of its allure since UFC acquired them. I mean, Zuffa cannibalized the majority of their talent and there’s nothing really interesting about their fights lately. The last few events have been dull as dirt. I used to tolerate the awful commentators and somewhat lame production (except their intro and camera angles), but now it’s hardly worth it.
I was hoping they’d do something interesting with the promotion. Maybe go back to real, two night tournaments, where the winner gets a UFC title shot. It would be good incentive for fights to make the shift to Strikeforce; if you’re not yet a top-10 in your division, you can enter the tournament and jump into contender-ship with a few wins. I bet you’d see guys like Fitch, Bj, Kongo enter that sort of thing, since it might be their only chance at a title shot in the near future.
Erasedhead - February 4, 2012
Are you are talking about a multiple fight tournament ? If so I don’t what two night means, the 1st fight then the 2nd months later ? I know for a one night tounrnament under most state Commissions they are not alloweed. The best a promotion can do is a Yamma Pit style tournament. A fighter is only alloweed to fight for 15 mins in one night if he is fighting multiple fighters so most matches would only be one 5 min round.
Shocbomb - February 4, 2012
Its joke that there still around, they were awesome. They consistently put on my fav shows.
Kefka - February 4, 2012
Main Event later
is between the former SF champion and WEC champion.
Overeem’s ( former SF HW champion ) is either for a #1 contenders bout or for the title.
Henderson (former SF LHW champion) is waiting for his shot at the title.
Bendo (former WEC champion) has his next bout for the title.
Jacare, Rockhold, Kennedy, Lawal, Mousasi, Calcavante, Barnett, Cormier, Melendez can mix things up in the UFC.
vivero - February 4, 2012
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