Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.
On overcast and dreary Superbowl Sunday morning, all I can think about is UFC 143 and the fallout from that card. Twitter and Facebook exploded with personal score cards and outrage following the announcement of Carlos Condit's decision victory over Nick Diaz. Full disclosure I had the fight 48-47 Condit.
Condit clearly won rounds 1 & 4, while Diaz clearly won 2 & 5 and round 3 seems to be the swing round. Now some people are saying that Diaz needs to be given rounds based on Octagon Control and Aggression. Carlos Condit's performance here is a prime example that Octagon Control does not simply mean "the guy coming forward". Condit controlled the distance for much of the fight but in the rounds he won he had clear generalship of the space between fighters. Condit's ideal distance for striking seemed to be an inch further away than where Diaz felt comfortable, and the cat-and-mouse game over that distance made for a very interesting fight.
More thoughts:
- On social outlets and here on Bloody Elbow I've seen people accusing people of a Kalib Starnes leveling of running. First of all, I highly suspect that people who claim that have not watched the infamous Starnes vs Quarry match, because if you have seen that you would know nothing we have seen before or since has ever come close to that. Secondly, escape situations that are disadvantageous is a completely legitimate part of fight. Go look at Nick Diaz fights and you'll see that Diaz's offense comes from trapping guys against the fence, getting them to shell up and overwhelming them with punches. Every time Condit felt his back on the fence, he slipped a punch and escaped out back to the center of the Octagon. This happens in boxing all the time, guys don't want to get trapped in corners. It isn't running, it is escaping a bad position, like how guys get out of side control.
- Can we please stop acting like Roy Nelson is a weight-watchers membership away from being a Top 10 Heavyweight? Nelson is a nice fighter at Heavyweight but he does not have elite level skills and Fabricio Werdum showed this pretty clearly. Werdum has always had good clinch striking, but his striking at range looked much better and on the ground, well Nelson wanted nothing to do with Werdum's guard. Yes, Nelson is a Renzo Gracie black belt, but there are black belts and then there are ADCC champions. Werdum beat Nelson in every aspect of that fight, and Nelson's weight had nothing to do with it, he was not skilled enough to resist.
- Oh and please don't start beating the 'Nelson needs to go to 205' drum. More athletic, more skilled opponents are not going help Nelson's career. Nelson is at the right weight for him, he is just never going to contend at that weight.
- Josh Koscheck looked awful. And we shouldn't be surprised, Kos was a member of the original TUF cast. How many guys from that original season are still winning relevant fights in the UFC? The old guard is fading out at Welterweight and it seems Koscheck is the next perennial contender who will no longer be contending. Mike Pierce should have won that fight.
- Oh and Herb Dean needed to take a point from Koscheck for that eye poke, at least. After taking two points from Alex Caceres, how can Dean justify not taking one point from Koscheck after warning him about extending those fingers moments before the eye poke?
more after the jump...
SBN coverage of UFC 143: Diaz vs. Condit
- Ed Herman's takedown was sweet. Love seeing Judo techniques working their way into more and more MMA fighter's clinch game.
- Matt Riddle looked like complete garbage and won based on the "Leonard Garica Effect". Riddle fights to his detriment and does not listen to his corner. He gets put in with a real, serious UFC welterweight and he gets killed.
- On the other end of the spectrum, Matt Brown did an excellent job of listening to his corner. In the break between Rounds 1 and 2, Brown's corner told him that Cope dropped his left hand when Brown punched to the body. First thing Brown did in Round 2 was throw a jab to the body and then an overhand right. Coming after the Matt Riddle fight, it was impressive to see a fighter accepting coaching so well. And the fight ending sequence was set up by a body shot followed by right hand.
- Alex Caceres deserves another shot in the UFC. I thought he won that fight. He arguably won all three rounds before point deductions. That said, this was not a very technical fight. Brookhouse said it on Twitter, it looked like two BJJ white belts who had been rolling for 2 and 3 months respectively. One was bad and the other was worse. Figueroa is turing into giving up his back into an art form and Caceres didn't seem to understand that the arm has to be under the chine to finish a choke.
- Joe Rogan's love affair with both Gable Grip RNCs and Diamond MMA cup talk continued in the Caceres/Figueroa fight.
- I liked the new opening, but I would have liked to seen more submissions or ground positions.
During the Caceres fight I was literally yelling at him to lock up the triangle choke on at least 3 different occasions. He never did, which led me to believe he may really be a BJJ whitebelt….since that’s what I am, and even I could have locked up those triangles. He literally just had to swing his leg over his ankle…Edwin did all the positioning work for him!
sklart - February 5, 2012
he didnt deserve another shot
after losing his first 2 fights and after last night im thinking to get cut he needs to: make a rape joke on twitter,come in 7lbs overweighy, piss hot for steroids all in the same day then maybe he will get cut….maybe
nickrodamous - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Yes pierce won that fight
Afrotikiman - February 5, 2012 via mobile
That article is overflowing with negativity.
You must be a “glass is half empty” type of guy.
sgiblin - February 5, 2012
did it really come off like that?
I enjoyed the hell out of this card. I just thought these were the talking points that came out of it
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
Yes it did
Its spitting venom
Stiff Jab - February 5, 2012
ok then
I’ll keep that in mind for next time and I can highlight more of what made the card fun also
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
i thought you nailed it
I like that you take criticism so well, but I think that you were spot-on, TP.
glib_mf - February 7, 2012
"while Diaz clearly won 2 & 5"
Not sure how he clearly won round 5. Yeah, he controlled the last minute on the ground, but he was getting outboxed for the first 4 minutes.
William Wilson - February 5, 2012
I thought round 4 was the only decisive round for either fighter, but I still need to rewatch it.
Zachary Kater - February 5, 2012
So getting hit with shots that don't even rock you negates take down, securing the back for over a minute, working for two different subs?
If so, then Jon Fitch needs to have more losses on his record.
sklart - February 5, 2012
Getting dominated on the ground justifies a scorecard
Or maybe we just shouldn’t scored grappling at all.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
*replace scorecard with round*
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
-" Kalib Sterns"? I doubt if anyone has seen Kalib “Sterns” run from Nate.
-“And we shouldn’t be surprised, Kos was a member of the original TUF cast. How many guys from that original season are still winning relevant fights in the UFC?” So, the reason he didn’t look good was because he was on TUF 1?
-I don’t think nelson at 205 is much of a thought, at 35, he just is what he is. However, when you look at him and Werdum side by side, they are absolutely two different sized humans that looked like they should ideally be in different classes.
-Cope and Bruce Leroy, just don’t look like UFC level fighters.
BJJDenver - February 5, 2012
He is saying that the fighters from TUF 1 are the old guard and the new guard of younger fighters are coming in and Kos might not be able to handle the next generation of fighters to be a Top 10 WW he is also getting up there in age
chavez_26 - February 5, 2012
I get that, but that is what you write, not lump him in a segment of fighters that have little in common other than being on a TV program together.
Then, I would have a point to argue, that Pierce is a tough grinder who made Kos look bad and Kos came in with the same old drop a bomb strategy.
BJJDenver - February 5, 2012
agreed don’t mean to come off like a dick
chavez_26 - February 5, 2012
It still makes no sense. Kos has been on TUF 1 but Pierce could’ve been on TUF 1 just as well. It’s not like he’s a new kid who almost beat a vet. So I don’t get how this conclusion got drawn.
KGNLuc - February 5, 2012
TUF 1 was in 2005
Pierce’s first fight was in 2007. He is 31 years old, not a young up and comer but still in his prime.
Kos is at the end of his prime and the majority of his big career wins came against guys from a UFC welterweight division of the past: Triggs, Spratt, Hazelett, Lytle, Yoshida.
Kos was a legit Top 10 fighter, but looking around the current division he hasn’t really tested himself against those guys and I don’t think he would win the majority of those matches.
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
finally a voice of reason
chavez_26 - February 5, 2012
Is that why he won all 3 rounds?
inthepipes - February 5, 2012
against???
BJJDenver - February 6, 2012
I used to think that...
Then I watched him at 135 twice.
Diz D - February 5, 2012
(re: Alex Caceres)
Diz D - February 5, 2012
Exactly. He’s a fun to watch, legitimate UFC 135er that ran into captain arbitrarily huge penalties, Herb Dean.
Day Man - February 5, 2012
Bruce Leeroy can definitely compete in the middle of that division
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
or at the very least
he should get another shot because if Dean had only taken one point he very well could have won the fight
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
I thought he won every round
He dominated the grappling and the striking was fairly even.
Figueroa is a very flawed fighter. He throws hays and is inaccurate, and has serious defensive grappling issues.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
I agree and am only on the fence about the first because Alex almost got finished with that head kick.
There is just no consistency to how low blows are treated…or any kinds of “fouls” for that matter.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 6, 2012
I agree not the best way I could have worded my thoughts
My point was Kos has been around a LONG time, is in his mid-thirties and his time as a consistent contender is likely ending.
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
Kos
Can probably hang around the top 10 for another two years or so, but at some point he’s going to get Hendricks’d or Ellenberger’d. He’s gotten by for years on his wrestling, athleticism, and overhand right, and that’s not enough against the new breed.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
I had Condit winning 5.
Liked the intro too. I haven’t rewatched it, but didn’t it start with Royce tapping Shamrock on the ground?
Fraser Coffeen - February 5, 2012
Yes sir.
T.C. Engel - February 5, 2012 via mobile
I had him winning the first 4 and gave Diaz the 5th for a 49-46. Everyone i was watching with had it 48-47 for Diaz. Silly fools.
Intro was a massive improvement, but I thought it was underwhelming compared to my expectations. Definitely better than the gladiator.
BJJDenver - February 5, 2012
I liked the new intro for the most part, but my main disappointment was the theme, it just didn’t click with me. I expected a lot more from the guy who composed the themes for The Dark Knight, Inception, and Gladiator.
amendamatrix - February 5, 2012
I expected a lot more as well and I think that is why I was so disappointed in it.
It felt corny with the concrete crushing and seemed trite upon my first impression. Maybe it needs to grow on me, but I’m definitely shedding a tear for the bulbous-calfed gladiator.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 6, 2012
How did you not give Diaz the 2nd?
He had twice as many strikes to head and body as Condit did in that round.
RockyBullwinkel - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Let me clarify
When I score a fight, I am scoring how I think the judges will have it. i.e. predicting the outcome.
I figured they would give a lot of weight to the leg kicks and probably would see condit striking then moving, as octagon control.
BJJDenver - February 6, 2012
Yes… everyone else was a silly fool.
Diz D - February 5, 2012
I had money on Condit and thought Diaz would get the nod at 48-47, taking 1, 2, and 5.
Snake_Pliskan - February 5, 2012
That feeling when you say “Sterns” multiple times so you can’t write it off as a typo or something. Blame auto-correct. That’s what I do, every time, without fail. Even when it doesn’t make sense. It works.
Kaleb Kelchner - February 5, 2012
ugh no excuse
I will claim a combination of generally being a poor writer and being sick
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
I figured
You were just such a big fan of the department store that you couldn’t get it out of your brain
Cory Braiterman - February 5, 2012
Honestly, I’m really surprised that people are dissapointed with the Condit-Diaz fight. It was one of the best fights I’ve seen in a good while. No fading in the later rounds, high technical execution of technique and above all fighters keeping it cold and execute their gameplans. Plus judges actually scoring “octagon controll” in a intellegent way.
And exactly what part of the fight didn’t people find exiciting? In my opinion it was way more exciting than Shogun vs Hendo. (which was great in a different way) I found it exciting to see if Condit would be able to keep his cold and continue to escape. And the end of the fight was really great!
According to me, the fight was MMA at it’s finest. Technical, tough, and with a lot of heart.
Shoulder - February 5, 2012
Are you really surprised?
Condit and Diaz have a reputation of standing, trading, and putting people away. Put two fighters like that together and you’re going to see fireworks, right? Condit didn’t do it, he fought a smart fight, but consequently we didn’t the expected pyrotechnics. I suspect the people who enjoyed the fight are the same purists who enjoyed Machida’s early UFC victories. I would think that most casual fans didn’t enjoy it or the result as much (evidenced by the boos when Condit was giving his speech).
I also think you’re probably in a very small minority when you say you enjoyed this fight more than the Shogun-Hendo fight.
Pantherhare - February 5, 2012
Shogun-Hendo was a Monet painting
Condit-Diaz was a Bob Dylan Christmas tune.
Both good, whereas only one is brilliant.
Erasedhead - February 5, 2012
(evidenced by the boos when Condit was giving his speech).
I’m not sure how much could be attributed to Diaz behind him raising his own hand and gesturing while Condit was talking to Joe. It was pretty obnoxious.
Dootch - February 5, 2012
I think you are spot on, I really enjoyed early machida and we probably are in minority.
But yeah, I was surprised beacause I got so cauht up in the fight. It was really long time ago I enjoyed a fight so much. But now when I think about it i should not have been.
Shoulder - February 5, 2012
"Condit clearly won round 1"
I think you’re on that island by yourself. I had 1, 2 and 5 for Diaz. And a lot of unbiased pros agree.
If Condit won round 1, it definitely wasn’t clearly.
sgiblin - February 5, 2012
You could probably say that most of the rounds weren’t clear. I think you had to dig pretty deep into the criteria to pick a winner. I just wonder what we would all be reading if it had been 48-47 Diaz??
BJJDenver - February 5, 2012
Pros aren't unbiased
They have their allegiances and friendships and opinions as well.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
The same holds true for BElitists
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
yes
Jordan Breen had a rather epic rant on the topic of bias informing most MMA complaining last night…
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
can I get a link?
discussing last night’s UFC is looking alot better than watching Superbowl preshows.
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
True enough, but...
There’s a big difference between, say, Nate Diaz expressing bewilderment in this case and someone like Pat Militech.
I don’t think that Dan Henderson, for example, is just such good friends with Nick Diaz that he’d be biased in how he scored the fight…
Bloody L - February 5, 2012
Sure
But bias is a sneaky thing. Everybody’s perspectives, even those of the most objective member of the media, are informed by an entire complex of factors; the fact that Miletich was never much of a kicker, for example, may lead him to underrate the effectiveness of low kicks. Hendo said he’d never seen Condit fight before last night, and picked Diaz before the fight because he knew him; having picked someone to win does influence how we perceive the fight itself.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
this is just wrong.
Condit out struck Diaz 32 – 22 in round 3. how are you that blind in one of the dominant Condit rounds. Diaz didn’t win, sorry there’s no argument for getting out struck for 4/5 rounds(arguably for all 5)
inthepipes - February 5, 2012
Yeah I don’t understand why people can’t admit Condit definitively won that fight
Afrotikiman - February 5, 2012 via mobile
this
All diaz did was walk forward. And hell there was moments when condit tucked and banged his way out for the fence. Perfect execution. I can only think of one time diaz got to do his thing against he cage
KMcCaig - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Even in countering, Condit outlanded Diaz and landed harder
Afrotikiman - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Diaz hit him with some really hard shots in the third round
Numbers are an awesome tool, but should never be used in substitution of watching the fight. A Diaz scorecard is perfectly justifiable.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
diaz hitting hard
is a oxymoron.
inthepipes - February 5, 2012
That meme is old
What else you got? You want to post some Nyan cat and a Boxxxy gif?
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
Diaz has a shitload of KOs and TKOs.
But you’re probably right. All those dudes were probably just chumps off the streets.
sgiblin - February 5, 2012
It is running out of a bad position
Timidity.
Ionnes - February 5, 2012
Lol
What Nelson needs to do is get on an Overeem type diet and get swole
Full Mount - February 5, 2012
Fast food is good overseas
Ionnes - February 5, 2012
I NEED A MOD'S HELP
My account security was compromised this morning and i tired to delete it but it wouldn’t let me. When i made a new account it was banned for some reason. Can i get some help please? I can’t find the email of this chris barton guy
Ionnes - February 5, 2012
Under "Team Bloody Elbow" on the home page.
Click someone’s name and they’ll help you out.
sgiblin - February 5, 2012
i scored it 49-46 condit
condit was outstriking him for the duration of the 5th round until the takedown/back control
as for the “unbiased pros” comment – lets be real the majority of “pros” and casual fans wanted the gsp-diaz fight
compustrike also had condit outlanding diaz in significant strikes, which i agreed with (initially watching the fight and before checking compustrike figures)
not saying compustrike is the end all be all, but in this case the judges’ decision coincided correctly with CS numbers
Gouken - February 5, 2012
Compustrike is terrible
Fightmetric all day.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
The Diaz-Condit fight reminded me a lot of the Hitman-Diego fight...
…in that Diego kept pressing the action, but the Hitman clearly landed the better shots. Same goes for Nick and Carlos last night. For the record, I think Condit clearly took it home, but I had many dissenters sitting in the room with me.
Kent Carter - February 5, 2012
Finally
OK now can everyone finally stop pretending that Diaz had a prayer against GSP or that he hasn’t been severely over-rated, he has always had a huge weakness to wrestlers and now that he just lost a unanimous decision in a fight that was 100% a striking match (which is exactly what diaz and his fans always hope for) can we finally accept that he was dominant in Strikeforce because Strikeforce is the minors and he will lose consistently against any top 10 UFC fighter.
williambonney - February 5, 2012
Had a prayer?
He just went 5 rounds with the number one contender who is going to use pretty much the same strategy as GSP would have used…. I think it’s safe to say he had a shot.
You people want to yell at the “diaz nuthuggers” but act like you’re not just as bad.
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
I think GSP would have used a slightly different strategy against Diaz then Condit did.
verloc - February 5, 2012
agree it would have looked like this
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
This is what I'm talking about.
Then someone is going to post a gif of Diaz submitting someone then someone is going to post a gif of someone saying “u mad bro?” then another guy is going to post a gif of GSP countering a submission, what is this, MMA gif battle? A new internet RPG game I don’t know about?
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
my point being GSP wouldn't be thai boxing Diaz
he’d be wrestling him. totally different fights
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
He’d be wrestling, sure. Obviously Condit didn’t want to be on the ground with Diaz but GSP surely wouldn’t mind.
But other than wrestling, GSP would do the exact same to Diaz, leg kicks, circling around, brief exchanges.
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
GSP likes to be at range
but most of the time, unless he feels like he has a significant advantage on the feet like he did against Kos and Shields, GSP strikes to set up takedowns.
I think GSP would grappling with Diaz, because unlike the Condit fight, Diaz would have the reach advantage and be able to go to work.
I think that is angle that I didn’t address enough, is Diaz looked really uncomfortable not having a reach advantage.
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
lol
diaz will lose consistently to any top 10 UFC fighter? he owned BJ, a former champ, and probably a top 10 MMA fighter of all time
pingpongplaya - February 5, 2012
BJ at 170 is a farce.
BVandDietPepsi - February 5, 2012
He fought fitch to a draw and KOed Hughes. So pleasssseee. BJ is dangerous at WW as well.
KGNLuc - February 5, 2012
bj
who is much smaller than nick, who folds under pressure, who yes, had knocked out old matt hughes, but hadn’t won another fight above lightweight in 6 YEARS
dribblebib - February 5, 2012
Daley was top 10 when he fought Diaz too
Chris Hall - February 5, 2012
Daley
is his most impressive recent win, in my opinion. On the other hand, he was in BIG trouble in that fight.
dribblebib - February 6, 2012
I was somebody that said Condit acted like Starnes & that’s out of frustration because even with Condit running(even if it wasn’t on a Starnes level he still ran) I still thought Nick won 48-47
KJ Brophy - February 5, 2012
My two cents. However much they're worth.
Let me preface this and say that I am a HUGE Nick Diaz fan.
…This is ridiculous for anyone to say that the fight was robbed when the fight was as close as it is. I scored two rounds def. for Diaz, two rounds were too close for me to call and one round def. for Condit. In that gray area, it is anyone’s victory.
Condit deserved that victory. I’ve been saying for a long time the only way to beat Diaz is with punishing leg kicks, a mastering of distance and entering and exiting in brief, successful exchanges. This is exactly what Condit did. To the lay man, Condit is a hypocrite and fought a boring fight, to the cerebral MMA fan this was a back-and-forth chess match that could have very well ended either way. I could say a lot of different things. Like, if Condit has the “Diaz style” so nailed in why didn’t he go for a finish? I believe he could have put way more power into those head kicks and low kicks. Maybe he could have actually knocked Diaz out? That’s why it seemed like more of a point sparring exhibition. However, I could say the same for Diaz, he claims he could have finished that armbar if he didn’t already think he was ahead. C’mon Nick, you finish it anyway. Also, it was obvious he didn’t want any of the Diaz ground game so Nick should have tried more intently to get Condit on the ground. Yet it was only in the last round where Diaz obtained his back and, other than getting Condit up against the cage for his famous flurry, was the best Diaz did in the fight.
The saddest thing is Nick wanted to retire…I don’t know how serious the claim is but if it is it makes me lose some respect. The fight looked like it could have gone at least 2-3 more rounds for BOTH fighters. In a situation like that, neither one needs to be disappointed. When you’re at a level like that, it is something really special. Think about the the rematch? Could this have ended up as one of the UFC’s famous fight trilogies? Who else in this division could do better against Diaz than GSP? Diaz is at a perfect position still and could very well become champion by staying at the UFC and fighting fights he can win until a Condit/Diaz II or a Diaz/GSP for the title or a chance at the title again.
Personally, I think this media barrage is more a part of Nick’s reaction at the end of the fight than the loss…flame me if you will but that’s my opinion and only that. It was obvious how it worn on him, forcing out probably the most eloquent quote ever spoken by Diaz…
That def. didn’t come from being frustrated with training or over-thinking Condit…these are all the non-fight obligations he just really doesn’t want to do due to some, either true medically-classifiable personality disorder or one in which that is self-inflicted.
In conclusion, for all the people out there with the army of memes and hundreds of comments with dancing troll faces and unloading Google Image’s collection of “u mad bro?” gifs…. stop. You’re just as bad as blind Diaz “nuthuggers”. If we’re going to spend all this time and effort following this sport as close as we can, we need to at least be sensible about it.
Congratulations Condit, from Nick Diaz’s biggest fan.
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
Nice
Afrotikiman - February 5, 2012 via mobile
excellent post sir
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
Very nice post
19Miles - February 5, 2012
1000x's this
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
I agree. Except the losing respect part.
Nick has been saying for months that he feels done with MMA. This is a well known fact, and seeing how he can’t wrap his head around the point game, we should all be singing praises to the guy given how he bowed out while he still has his health. Maybe in frustration, maybe in a tantrum, or whatever, but he can still have a healthy life after all this.
Isn’t that what we want out of the fighters, at the end?
Unabomberman - February 5, 2012
Thanks gentlemen.
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
Diaz - Condit was a close fight,
it could have gone either way, I personally scored it 48 – 47 Diaz ( rounds 1, 2 and 5), anyone screaming robbery doesn’t know what he is talking about or can’t look past his own bias. But however you see it from an objective scoring standpoint, I can’t shake the feeling that MMA lost out tonight, big time. GSP – Diaz would have been one of those fights that are more than fights, that come along very rarely. It would have been an event with electric atmosphere, with immens hype around it, hype that forges a bond between people, who share in a collective feeling and knowledge. A fight that may even had the potential to break MMA mainstream. That’s out of the window now and it’s probably gone for good. Condit had a very good showing, had a great gameplan and executed it very well, good for him, he definitely deserves his shot, nonetheless I can’t even tell you how disappointed I am right now.
feiwongfu - February 5, 2012
Well said
And I agree about the missed matchup… Diaz is a polarizing media figure, and I think the show down (safe champion vs relentless in-your-face challenger), could have really captured the imagination…
I doubt it will happen, but I think GSP would stand to gain a lot (in some fans eyes), if he were to fight Diaz in November anyways, and then challenge for the belt after that.
Bloody L - February 5, 2012
if i’m not mistaken wasn’t the first clip in the intro Royce subbing Ken shamrock?
darkotto23 - February 5, 2012
LOL
you are right sir…
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
I haid Condit-Diaz 49-46
The only round I gave to Diaz was the 5th with back control. Even the second seemed to edge towards Condit, albeit it was close. I will rewatch the fight, but I’m pretty suprised so many people had it for Diaz. He just did not doi anything of note in the standup to warrant that
sitnam90 - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Outside of punch Condit repeatedly.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
Yoda you are?
jcbrewer - February 5, 2012
Yoda I am.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
Condit punched him back just as much, and just as hard;
add in the leg kicks, and that fight was basically a route.
ElliotMatheny - February 5, 2012
and take all manner of strikes in return
Diaz had some success against the cage. Problem is, most of the fight was Condit playing keep away with leg kicks, headkicks, and counter punches. Diaz really didn’t do much outside of those flurries.
sitnam90 - February 5, 2012 via mobile
Figueroa has a testicular contusion
Brutal. If you didn’t support the two point deduction before, you better now.
Tim Bernier - February 5, 2012 via mobile
You know Diamond MMA makes a cup.....
Still, two points for an unintentional foul is ridiculous.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
I like how Leonard Garcia can go forward all the time and wade through missed punches
And then everyone rightfully bitches judges reward aggression way too much, but when Condit is backpedaling and landing shots repeatedly the judges should’ve given the rounds to Diaz because he was moving forward landing no more than two strikes before Condit circled away from the cage.
It seems to me that Nick Diaz has earned a cult following and that his actions have made his fans so deluded that he can beat GSP and dominate WW that they refuse to let reality seep in. I thought Condit won the fight and he definitely landed the better shots. If Condit can outpoint Diaz, GSP would outpoint him and probably score some takedowns.
SSreporters - February 5, 2012
yep
T.P. Grant - February 5, 2012
agreed
I wonder how many people that gave Nick the fight also thought Leonard Garcia won vs Korean Zombie, and Nam Phan, or thought Diego Sanchez beat Martin Kampman.
darkotto23 - February 5, 2012
I thought Diaz won
And I thought Kampmann beat Sanchez, and KZ beat Leonard.
discoandherpes - February 5, 2012
Only difference with Condit vs. Diaz and Sanchez vs. Kampmann
Is that Sanchez’s offensive output was shit.
Diaz and Condit was way more even than that.
SSreporters - February 5, 2012
This.
I love that there’s a line of reasoning running around that Carlos was “running”; he countered, moved, and threw strikes while he was moving. He outlanded Diaz over the course of the fight and in almost every round, so clearly his movement didn’t stop him from landing strikes.
What was Condit supposed to do, stand there with his chin in the air and let Diaz hit him? If people want to complain about the fight not being what they wanted it to be, blame Diaz for having no goddamned idea how to cut off Carlos’ movement… but that might require them to acknowledge that Carlos’ low kicks actually had some effect, either by damaging Diaz’s lead leg or allowing him to set up that movement.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
The other side of the argument is Condit should have gameplanned to finish Diaz, not outpoint him. No one is saying whatever you suggested with that ridiculous strawman argument.
If you are going to have a discussion about it, why frame it in intellectually dishonest terms in response to someone who agrees with you?
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
Speaking of intellectual dishonesty
He should have game planned to finish a guy who hasn’t been finished in the last ten years? There’s your straw man, right there. There’s no viable gameplan in existence to finish Nick Diaz, and suggesting that Carlos should have somehow employed this non-existent gameplan is what’s intellectually dishonest. We formulate our arguments on the basis of the available evidence, not an unrealistic dissatisfaction with the course of a fight.
And yes, this idea that Carlos was “running” is exactly the basis of almost every argument that blames him for what people perceive as a bad fight; the unspoken alternative is that Carlos should have let Diaz draw him into wild exchanges that he almost certainly wouldn’t have won. If you want to discuss, let’s discuss. Be specific and tell me exactly, with evidence, how Carlos should have planned to finish him, or where he had opportunities during the fight to do so.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
KJ Noons would like to have a word with you. He stood toe to toe with Diaz (with a sizable reach disadvantage) and came out the victor. But, yeah. That didn’t happen. It’s impossible to win a boxing match with Nick Diaz.
Diaz has been dropped before. Daley dropped Diaz. He’s not impossible, just hard to finish. Fitch hadn’t been finished in forever and Hendricks blasted him into next century. Just because you don’t see a way for something to happen beforehand doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
My point is fighting isn’t some binary thing where there’s technical fighting and brawling and no other possible outcomes. No one is saying brawl with Nick Diaz. People are mad that Condit planned a game of tag, and won. People are mad, because The Natural Born Killer didn’t live up to his reputation.
Another strawman. I’m talking specifically about overall strategy, not specific missed tactics. Condit didn’t pull a Shogun last night with the leg kicks. There would be alot less complaining if Condit actually planted his feet for even 30% of those leg kicks. He pulled a Dominique Cruz. Which is fine. Just don’t expect him to have a large fanbase if he continues to fight this way, or for people to universally appreciate his “gameplans”.
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
KJ finished him with cuts, after which Diaz had scar tissue removed from his face to make sure that wouldn’t happen again. Stopping a less-developed version of Diaz almost five years ago doesn’t translate to a viable gameplan today.
Carlos Condit isn’t Paul Daley, and one flush left hook against Dan Hardy aside, simply doesn’t have that kind of go-to-sleep power in his punches or kicks. Flying knees aren’t particularly viable against Diaz because of his aggressiveness: they’re incredibly hard to throw moving backwards and laterally since the distance is so much more difficult to gauge. Ellenberger or Hendricks could profitably employ a more exchange-based style against Diaz because their power gives them a realistic shot of dropping and then finishing him. A good gameplan focuses on viable possibilities given the evidence at hand, not a long shot of knocking your opponent out in a wild back-and-forth affair; the fact that unforeseen things happen in a fight is a lot different than building a strategy around them.
A strategy manifests itself in tactical responses to a given set of parameters; it’s not some abstract principle that lives on a cloud in the sky. A strategy has in-fight manifestations, so I’m asking you specifically what those would be given the abilities and limitations of both Condit and Diaz. Saying “he should have planned to finish him” is the straw man here.
Nine times out of ten, I’d agree with you on the question of binaries. In this case, however, the binary is perfectly applicable: Carlos could do exactly what he did or he could have gotten into extended exchanges with Nick, the exact path that led each of Nick’s previous opponents over the last five years to their eventual doom.
The question of fandom is totally separate. Did I want to see something wild and unforgettable last night? Yes, absolutely, but Carlos couldn’t have won that fight, and I’m not going to castigate him for winning.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
No its not- its just two different philosophies on fighting. You can strategize to win the game, or you can strategize to disable your opponent with strikes or submissions. Sometimes the first leads to finishes, often times the latter leads to decisions. I’m not deriding decisions. I’m deriding point fighting.
the KJ fight breaks the commonly held myth of Diaz. KJ outboxed him, and didn’t get run into the fence, even with the reach disadvantage. You CAN outbox Nick Diaz in MMA, people shouldn’t act like its a forgone conclusion that you will lose a fistfight with Diaz in MMA. Yes, Diaz got the surgery, but his still bleeds ridiculously every fight because he’s so damn easy to hit. And that’s part of the rub- Diaz is easy to hit and Condit has legitimate power in his strikes. Diaz put his hands down and walked, walked, at Condit talking shit. Please tell me you don’t see a tactical opening for a left hook? Or an overhand right? Nick Diaz isn’t Anderson Silva for fuck’s sake.
Condit just refused to plant his feet, save for some ridiculous spinning elbows he threw without setup. And that’s my tactical “why not”? why not plant your feet… not why not engage in a brawl with Nick Diaz. Fighting is never binary. As a fight historian, you of all people should recognize that.
The Lethal Haze - February 5, 2012
The KJ fight
Was a long, long time ago. Yes, he outboxed him, but Diaz is much, much better than he was five years ago. The biggest difference is power. Let me be clear, Diaz had shown power before, but in each of his last five or six fights he’s been punching harder and harder, and being willing to take those shots in order to deliver your own crisper strikes isn’t as viable an option as it was for KJ in their first fight. I’ll concede that it might have worked, but with the caveat that trying to play a technical boxing game against Diaz isn’t a sure path to finishing or even winning.
Throwing at Diaz while he has his hands down is not productive. That’s exactly what he wants, and the Anderson comparison is suitable; even if you’re hitting him, and hitting him hard enough to do damage, you’re playing exactly into his game – his range, his pace, his style. I’ll say it again: a flush left hook against Hardy aside, Condit has not consistently shown the kind of power punching that could really hurt Diaz, even in that situation.
Speaking of binaries, I don’t understand your chasm between point fighting and fighting to finish; they’re not mutually exclusive at all, and not planting your feet is hardly evidence that you’re not trying to finish a fight. Not planting your feet means you want to maximize your mobility and movement, which theoretically speaking should give you the kinds of angles necessary to throw fight-ending strikes. I’d urge you not to read intent from effect: have you ever been hit with square low kicks from a technician like Condit? They hurt badly, limit your movement, and interfere with your ability to find your range. The fact that Diaz took 68 of them over five rounds is a testament to his toughness, not that Condit was throwing pitter-patter little shots.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the brawling/technique binary, at least as far as this fight is concerned: doing anything other than what Condit did would have led directly to the kind of brawl that favored Diaz.
Patrick Wyman - February 5, 2012
I had it 49-46 Condit
Closeish fight but Condit landed the majority of the better strikes. I think at best Diaz could get 2 rounds for 48-47 to Condit.
Condit implemented his gameplan perfectly, Diaz couldn’t do his thing for the majority of the fight.
Rematch would be nice.
taptomyarmbar - February 5, 2012
I think a lot of the disappointment is because it was the moment where the WW division came crashing back to earth.
I think it is pretty safe to say that when GSP was fit and Fitch looked like the solid number 2, the WW division felt a little stale. Then GSP gets injured, Diaz comes over from Strikeforce, Condit makes his ascension, and Hendricks flattens Fitch. All of the sudden the WW division has new life breathed into it, culminating in Diaz vs Condit, a fight which was not questioned of whether it would be good, but whether it will be better than Hendo vs Shogun or not.
Then Condit uses the exact same gameplan that GSP would have used against Diaz anyway. And his reward? He will get the exact same out-pointing strategy used on him by someone much better at it, who has been doing it for much longer.
Not that there is anything wrong with that, it’s a sport after all. But you should forgive people for expressing their disappointment that the reinvigoration the division went under will possibly end up being a mirage.
brad23 - February 5, 2012
Bullshit...
I am sorry but you will not nor have ever seen GSP running away for a whole 5 rounds. Condit’s game plan was to run away, GSP’s is to confront and take advantage of the other fighter’s weakness.
Mesonto - February 6, 2012
Diaz’s weaknesses are relying on his length to strike, only being able to really mount offense when he has guys trapped against the cage and not checking kicks. So Condit did take advantage of all of those.
T.P. Grant - February 6, 2012
condit fought a good fight
condit executed his gameplan to perfection. i don’t understand people who say he should have traded blow for blow with diaz. diaz wins those fights everytime along the fence. condit watched his tape and developed a good gameplan with his coaches. i thought it was a great technical match, and I enjoyed it. if i want to see two guys just stand in front of each other and punch each other in the face to test their chins i can drop by the local hooters. condit threw knees, headkicks, spinning backfists… it’s not like he didn’t try to hit diaz hard, but he’s a tough guy to finish
Fred Thomsen - February 5, 2012
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