Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.
"Like autumn leaves, his sense fell from him. An empty glass of himself, shattered somewhere within. His thoughts like a hundred moths, trapped in a lampshade.
Somewhere within, their wings banging and burning. On through endless nights. Forever awake he lies shaking and starving, praying for someone to turn off the light."
What follows from this verse is one of the meanest riffs Tom Morello ever produced. But the lyrics also feel like they apply to the most "enigmatic" figure in mixed martial arts: the one and only, Nick Diaz. Minus, of course, any sense of meaning, social context, or political direction (however disagreeable you might find that direction).
Still, Nick makes very clear in interview after interview that if there's a constant to Nick's mind it's that his attitude validates the idea that the human brain is a ‘team of rivals', and Nick's brain is in constant rivalry.
I feel this is part of what makes Nick so elusive to us as a personality. We know what it's like to understand the paradox of controlling the impulse to shout an obscenity at someone who means us no harm (an experience typical in the workplace where we occasionally have to stand next to the incompetent). Nick does not.
When I watched Nick's interview at the press scrum with our very own Matt Roth, it's as If even the most simple, and trivial questions demand a full body search. Nick's mind perceives a world where curiosities wear black hats, and inquiries display their own Schutzstaffel insignia.
So what happens when an opponent he respects doesn't fight the way he would like, and he ends up on the wrong end of a close decision in a title fight for a shot at a larger money fight with Georges St. Pierre?
When Diaz exclaims he's "outta of this s**t", and threatens retirement, I believe him. That doesn't mean it'll happen. It doesn't mean he won't change his mind. It doesn't mean Dana White won't throw him more money to keep him knowing he's an elite fighter, and still a draw with the potential for a future match with GSP given that Nick is only 28.
But it does mean that Diaz is sincere with his frustration. And it does mean that if ever there were a figure in MMA to make good on such a wild, dramatic prediction, it would be Diaz. It also means Nick is a big fat sore loser.
SBN Coverage of UFC 143: Diaz vs. Condit
I've never been one to romanticize the thesis that mixed martial arts is all about respect, honor, and some cheap more-ploy-than-philosophy idea of "the way of the warrior". To his legion of fans, Nick is certifiably a ‘warrior'. But what kind of warrior treats defeat like a hexagonal conspiracy? What kind of warrior responds to loss like some bubble gummer on her 16th birthday, throwing a hissy fit over the fact that she got a brand new Taucoma instead of a Lexus?
The fight itself failed to live up to its expectations, but I find it downright bizarre that Carlos Condit has received any flack at all. Not that he has, but in the way that he has. I feel stupid for giving very stupid opinions the oxygen of publicity, but why the distinction between fighting and game planning among fans? Condit was more than willing to strike with Diaz. The numbers reveal as much. He just didn't want to strike with Diaz with his back against the cage.
The criticism that Condit fought "smart" instead of simply fighting is utterly hollow. Nick's very specific and calculated method to get Condit against the cage was just as much of a ‘gameplan' as Condit's to stay outside and strike from distance. There's no doubt in my mind that if Nick stood in the center of the octagon, Carlos would have too. But just as Nick didn't fight to his opponent's strength, neither did Condit hence why the fight was so close.
If Nick is angry about the way his opponent fought, then his failure to adapt will be his downfall, and he will have nobody to blame but himself. I suspect the blame will never fall on his shoulders, in his mind. He'll never ask himself why he couldn't have thrown more kicks, or attempted more takedowns. It'll just be his own insular chorus of what Condit didn't let him do inside that lampshade of his.
16 recs | 130 comments
One of my fave RATM songs
Great piece as well
PDG27 - February 6, 2012
Bravo
Thank you for addressing the ludicrous complaints that Condit chose not to do what Diaz’s other opponents all did and play directly into his gameplan. Condit fought a smart, technical fight. It seriously disturbs me that that is suddenly looked down upon.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Exactly. I fail to see why there is such a problem with his performance. If your fighting a guy like Diaz you do not fight with your back against the wall. During the BJ Penn fight me and my buddies were yelling at the TV telling BJ to get his back off the cage. That is what Diaz likes to do.
So if you stay mobile and not fall into his game you have a good chance at winning.
I found this fight to be a nail bitter, so did everyone else I watched it with. It showed some fight smarts.
Its Diaz’s fault about the fight, he could not adapt to Condits game.
Great fuckin article.
Clay Davis - February 6, 2012
Amen
I can’t agree with you more. This insane notion that if somebody doesn’t fight exactly the way Nick Diaz wants to fight it was “boring.” Honestly, as a fan of MMA it was a tremendous performance to witness.
ChicagoMMAFan - February 6, 2012
Dude deserves props for walking out to Ghost of Tom Joad
Anton Tabuena - February 6, 2012
Diaz, look in the mirror and
know your enemy. Comprimise, comformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance, hypocracy, brutality, the elite.
FatBa - February 6, 2012
is that you Kimbo?
Kevin Jennison J. Zametov-St Pierre - February 6, 2012
So is Jackson going to train and corner Condit against GSP?
menckenstein - February 6, 2012
Sorry for off-topic but I had written a long post about the smart gameplan and that thought hit me.
Nick needs to see a shrink, his victim complex is out of control.
menckenstein - February 6, 2012
I think he said he's not going to
but I don’t have any useful proof. /cool story bro
mollcutpurse - February 6, 2012
good question, i was wondering that as well.
gspmademegay - February 6, 2012
I think I read that he wouldn't corner either of them if they fought
Either Condit and GSP or it was about two of his other fighters who could potential be up for title fight against each other.
polevaultking - February 6, 2012
masterful, brilliant, etc
not synonymous with condit performance
doesn’t take a genius to :leg kick, leg kick, back’d into corner, take a body shot, roll off cage – repeat
it was effective way of winning but this is not Beethoven at work here in the octagon.
AnotherBadPrediction - February 6, 2012
Masterful
in the sense that everyone of Diaz’s opponents have known this and yet he has been able to draw most of them into his kind of fight. Condit is the only exception, though I don’t think he will remain so.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
If it’s so easy to do, how come he’s the first one to ever do it against Diaz? He’s also the first guy ever to out-strike Diaz…
Shnak - February 6, 2012
It takes a bit of fight IQ to know how to take your angles and dodge your way out of being backed into the wall. Especially when your opponent is trying everything they can to keep you there. If done wrong he could have just as easily been dropped ducking into a strike.
Diaz was not able to adapt. His game plan wasn’t working and he didn’t adjust whatsoever. There were several opportunities for him to clinch with Condit against the cage instead of trying to wall him with strikes over and over again.
YoungGun - February 6, 2012
Agree 100%. Condit is an intelligent fighter that could follow the game plan to a T. No matter what Nick tried to do to bait him into a brawl, he ignored him, which isn’t easy to do, and stuck to his game plan.
As for Nick, it’s not entirely his fault… in his mind, he was winning the fight, and that feeling was confirmed to him by his corner/brother who was telling him he was up 3-1 going into the 5th round. What’s funny is that Diaz lost this fight because he didn’t go for a finish in the 5th thinking he was already up on the score cards… he was sure he’d win decision. Nick Diaz happy to rely on the judges to win a fight? Kinda sounds like everything he says he hates about MMA… no?
Shnak - February 6, 2012
he took condits (a purple belt) back and tried to choke him out, kinda sounds like trying to finish a fight … No?
cheap_shot - February 6, 2012
He said himself that he would’ve tried harder to get Condit’s arm had he thought he was trailing on the cards.
Shnak - February 6, 2012
What an unreliable claim. “He said himself.” In the aftermath of a fight with all of his lather up. He could not have thought he was dominating the fight. This is guy who has never been a friend of the judges.
Charlie Custer - February 6, 2012
If he said himself that he possibly COULD have tried harder to get the submission but he didn't
doesn’t that mean he himself was playing it safe? If he was looking to go for the finish all the time, he would have tried his hardest to finish the lock, whether he was ahead on the scorecards or not.
blutspender - February 6, 2012
Especially in close fights a fighter’s corners should not let their fighter settle continuing to do the same thing each round. Just from my own memory Greg has always told his fighters what is working to keep doing and also to change something that wasn’t working, or to add another element to that they gameplanned to do in specific rounds depending on how the fight is developing.
The GSP-Hardy fight for example. GSP was mounting Hardy and was getting shook off when Hardy gave up the back and postured up on his feet. Greg told him instead to stay in half guard and strike to maintain position.
YoungGun - February 6, 2012
Condot's composure was insane
I remember after one of the rounds, I think it was the 4th, when Diaz caught a kick right at the bell and then just didn’t let go of Condit’s foot, leaving Condit awkwardly hopping back to his corner while the ref yelled at Diaz. I was waiting for Condit to at least throw a dirty look at Diaz, but there was nothing. It’s like he didn’t even realize what Diaz had done, he took the insult and threw away the anger flawlessly.
That grappling exchange at the end of the 5th was interesting as well. People though Condit wouldn’t be able to hang with Diaz on the ground, but within the span of a minute after having his back taken, Condit defended a RNC, defended an armbar, escaped and got a dominant position on Diaz. He could have relaxed and gotten saved by the bell, but he actually escaped, it was awesome.
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
wow. Condit***
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
MicahtheCynic - February 6, 2012
The Diaz corner seemed certain he was winning the fight. Nate Diaz told him he was 3-1 up going into the final round. It was really strange to see his brother and his boxing coach doing all the work in between rounds. I have no idea what Cesar Gracie was doing, but he should have been urging Nick to up the pace when it became clear Condit wasn’t fighting the fight they’d prepared for.
I doubt Diaz will retire, but if he did, MMA, and the 170 pound division in particular, will be far more mundane for it. I think some people will only appreciate Nick Diaz when he actually really does hang up the mitts for good.
sheikybaby - February 6, 2012
I knew BE would get it right I’m so tierd of hearing all this condit is a point fighter and a coward shit it makes me sick. Condit had a gameplan diaz couldn’t adapt. It’s that simple
youfailme91 - February 6, 2012 via mobile
Exactly. Diaz has certainly improved tremendously over the years, but he exposed himself as a one-trick pony. He found a guy who didn’t have trouble seeing that in Condit, and Diaz paid for it.
He was on to something with working his BJJ at the end, though, and while Condit is crafty as hell himself on the ground, Diaz could do very well in the future to remember that BJJ was his bread-and-butter in the beginning.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Despite what I say in the post below this, I have always been a Diaz hater and his inability to adjust during the fight was unsurprising to me. However, I see nothing wrong with his speech after the fight, he was only saying what 70% of the fans were thinking. Unless of course, its ok for Condit to do it but suddenly its heresy when Fitch does the same thing on the ground? Diaz was only seeing the future when he retired, because if everyone fought like Condit did Saturday night, this sport will be back in front of 2000 people in the McNichols Sports Arena in no time.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012
The complaint with Fitch
is that his style is boring. Nobody claims that he isn’t fighting and that his wins are invalid because of that.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
Condit wasn’t exactly running from him the whole fight he out struck Diaz. At one point Diaz stopped stalking him and let Condit come forward and he got the worst of the exchange and went right back to stalking Condit into the cage.
YoungGun - February 6, 2012
So Condit was just running for most of the night. Anyway, it’s not as if Fitch runs. The point is that Condit (on that night) fought a less-than-exciting (to many fans) fight. I’m not sure that it is a death knell to MMA as Hutchy said. Every sport has its boring, successful teams (like the Spurs of the NBA). You just have to mix in some exciting, successful fighters (like Jones). If every MMA fighter fought like how Condit fought that night, then I agree, it does not bode well for the sport. But that isn’t the case.
Pantherhare - February 6, 2012
How the hell was that running?
Condit wanted to strike at range. Usually you keep your opponent at range by establishing a jab or front kick, but you can’t do that with Diaz because he’ll just walk through them.
So, when Diaz walks forward, Condit takes a step back to re-establish range, and then fires shots. He never put more space than was necessary, and he was attacking the entire time. This is not running, this is fighting.
And if every fighter fought like Condit fought last night, all that means is that every fight would be riddled with head kicks, spinning back fists, and flying knees, all moves which are designed to separate the target from their senses. Diaz just has a really hard head.
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
People are being deliberately obtuse
Obviously Condit was not “running” like Kalib Starnes was “running” from Quarry. And saying that since Condit threw head kicks and spinning back fists meant that his plan was to finish Nick is like saying GSP was planning to end Jake Shields’ night because he threw some head kicks and super man punches. Condit’s primary goal was to score points and avoid taking damage, not go for the finish. I don’t understand why people are even arguing this.
The point that seems to be getting lost, is that this style of fighting is not exciting to many fans. That is what Hutchy is arguing and people keep latching on to semantics or going off on tangents.
Pantherhare - February 6, 2012
Granted he probably knew a decision was likely
but I still think he was trying to inflict damage whenever possible.
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
I am pretty sure if he really landed flush with any of his spinning back fists and dazed Diaz or rung his bell with any other strike he would have taken advantage and swarmed. He hit Nick a few times with headkicks but Diaz didn’t really show that he was dazed enough.
YoungGun - February 7, 2012
Running. :facepalm:
Circling and scoring is not running. Striking at an optimal range for your style is not running.
Pretty crazy how Condit was “running” while landing more strikes than his opponent.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
I expect to see both the posters above me posting on here fighting to the death to defend Cruz after his next fight as well….or does this argument only apply when it’s the likable guy doing it to the unlikeable guy?
Hutchy - February 6, 2012 via mobile
Cruz fan here
And I do enjoy his matches and find the dislike for him just as irrational.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
I don’t actually have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the overwhelming arrogant elitism of 90% of BEposters that if you didn’t find Condits performance jizz-tastically exciting, your a moron who doesn’t understand MMA .
Hutchy - February 6, 2012 via mobile
I don’t think most people that are defending Condit feel that the fight was “jizztastically” exciting. They’re defending that he wasn’t simply running the whole fight. He was reacting mostly to Diaz’s strategy of walking him down non-stop to put his back into the fence. Niether fighter deviated from their strategies and neither one significantly gained the upper hand so the fight stayed pretty much the same the whole time. Condit was trying to maintain range and attacked when he was in a good position and Diaz constantly tried to close in. Just because Condit didn’t fall for any of Diaz’s taunts and shit talk doesn’t mean he was refusing to engage.
YoungGun - February 7, 2012
Wait, what?
Now we’re saying Cruz hasn’t been legitimately winning his fights?
Stop trying to make this into likeable vs unlikeable. The fight didn’t end up as bloody and violent as you had expected. Condit won via superior gameplan. Get over it.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
You're really buying the premise
that if everyone fought like Carlos Condit the sport would die? If everyone in the UFC fought with half the ferocity and violence of a guy like Condit than the sport would likely be doing much better than it is! Is the guy not allowed one tactical, technical fight to undo another long unbeaten contender for the chance at riches and glory? This subtle Condit contempt in an effort to explain Diaz’s lack of effectiveness cannot be allowed to continue. Condit should offer to rematch Diaz — see if he wants some more — and clown him once again. It was plain to see that by the time Condit loosened up, he was having his way. He’s a more dangerous and more complete fighter and I predict he will offer many thrilling moments ahead for the MMA fan while Diaz will be racing fish to Alcatraz and jogging alongside the fitness-conscious junior partner at Wanker&Winkler LLC when the marathon comes to town.
Charlie Custer - February 6, 2012
See, heres the thing: both sides are right. Condit was under no obligation to stand and trade in front of Nick. He did what he had to do to win, and good for him. Unfortunately, it isnt good for anyone else. Saturday night was a huge loss for MMA. Not only do you lose the biggest fight of the year (GSP-Diaz), but you now replace it with a fighter who destroyed all credibility with the average fan. Sometimes, BE is in such a “hardcore fan” bubble, you dont see how Joe Six Pack at Hooters sees it. The bottom line is, there are 250,000 fans who will buy a UFC PPV no matter who is on it. To get any more then that, you need those average fans. If you are Joe Average, are you ever going to re watch that fight from Saturday night? Did Condit give you any reason whatsoever to ever watch one of his fights again? Watching Condit circle endlessly throwing leg kicks without his feet planted, good on him. But the casual fans arent idiot heathens for thinking that was a boring fight after being promised on Primetime to endless speeches about wars and gameness. No one likes to be sold a bill of goods that turns out to be fraudulent. This wasnt Rampage/Hendo, where both sides basically canceled each other out. This was Condit actively choosing not to engage in a manner which would put him in the slightest danger. Oh, and for those who say that anyone who hated Condit’s performance must not watch boxing, Sweet Pea Whitaker was one of the greatest defensive boxers of all time, the master of “hit and dont be hit”. Sweet Pea Whitaker also couldnt draw flies if he was dead by the side of the road and spent his career going into the other guy’s hometown because he couldnt sell 50 tickets on his own. Fan disgust with “safe” performances is nothing new.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012
You missed a couple of paragraphs from this article
Namely, this one:
krste - February 6, 2012
Huh? Stood in the center of the Octagon and did what? Stood there with his hands down for 30 seconds? 45 seconds? A full minute? Stand there until Condit suddenly morphed into Chris Leben? Condit was determined to flee. Diaz had a choice: stand in the middle of the cage with his hands down staring at Condit til Condit threw a punch, or come forward and try to make a fight of it. This is Nick Diaz, which do you think he was going to do?
Hutchy - February 6, 2012
Stand in the center and exchange. Diaz goes in the nrawl mode only when he puts someone with their back on the cage and for good reason, he lost most of those middle of the ring exchanges with Condit.
krste - February 6, 2012
No. Just no
This is what happened one of the very few times Nick wasn’t trying to back Condit into the cage.
When he had the opportunity to do so, Condit applied the pressure. When he was under threat of being pushed into a corner and taking a dozen shots per second, he countered and took an angle.
BKdroid - February 6, 2012
Also
Notice how Condit expected Nick to start plodding forward immediately after the combo. When he didn’t Carlos stepped right back into range to set off another.
BKdroid - February 6, 2012
LIAR!!!
Condit ran for 5 fuckin rounds!
lmaginary Enemy - February 6, 2012
I'm a Diaz fan
And I fucking love that Condit combo. I could watch that gif all day.
Also, you are totally right.
bevedog - February 6, 2012
YOU LIE
Body Triangle - February 6, 2012
What's with the "flee" BS?
Condit circled off of the cage. Circled. Took angles. While scoring strikes, btw. That is not “fleeing.”
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
I think when he says "flee"
he actually means “i am an idiot” because at this point that is the only conclusion I can draw about people saying condit “fled” for 5 rounds.
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
He chose to engage in such a manner that exposed him to the bare minimum of danger, at the expense of doing more significant damage. Which is of course diametrically opposed to the way he has fought in every fight prior to this one. Which got him the win. Congrats.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012 via mobile
However you want to word “didn’t brawl.”
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Yeah..
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
Diaz chose to plod forward and do nothing unless Condit was close to the cage. Condit kept bringing it back to the centre of the cage and there he engaged. Diaz seemed incapable of engaging anywhere other than the edges of the cage.
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
Great points, and i never expect anyone on BE to criticize Micheal Bispings style ever again. From here on in he’s a masterful, sublime kickboxer who originated the blueprint on how to beat pressure fighters.
Bisping will still cop huge amounts of stick though, because a lot of the praise for Condit is tinged with hatred for Nick Diaz.
sheikybaby - February 6, 2012
I cant subscribe to this hard enough, because after Bisping backpedaled away from LEben for 3 rounds throwing jabs, it was a masterful display of gameplanning, right? Leben is impossible to finish, so why even bother, right? Bisping did exactly the right thing that night and should be commended, right? BULL…..SHIT. This board was on fire with everyone going apeshit about how Bisping ran the whole fight and was somehow a coward for not planting his feet and throwing. NO ONE was defending Bisping’s gameplan. When Randy fought Vera, he was exactly right to hug Vera against the cage the whole fight, right? After all, every time they separated and Vera had some distance, he crushed Randy’s brittle chin, so everyone on the boards was high fiving the victory of Randy’s awesome gameplan that night, right? “Whoo, great game plan, Randy!!”. BULLLLLLLLLSHIT. Everyone on these boards was freaking out over the decision, and tearing Randy a new asshole for grinding the fight to a halt. The moral of the story is………..
You are all hypocrites. Everyone wanted to see Diaz lose, so they will take it any way they can get it, and defend Condit to the death for things that they have RIPPED other fighters for on here over and over and over.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012
The right side of Diaz’s face doesn’t look like Condit was running the whole fight. He traded punches constantly with Diaz, he just didn’t do it standing in one place with his back agaisnt the cage. Condit dictated the points where he wanted to engage and fought his way out of bad spots when Diaz backed him up to the fence.
YoungGun - February 6, 2012
Meh. You're painting a broad brush here.
I always felt that the hate on Bisping here was a bit over the top and the gameplan he had against Leben made perfect sense. A lot of people (including the staff) felt the same.
Tonley - February 6, 2012
I actually did think of Bisping-Leben when I was watching this fight
and honestly, what else would you have had Bisping do? He came in to that fight as a finisher; only one of his 16 wins at that point had gone to a decision. He was up against a guy that he probably couldn’t finish, so he fought in such a way that would allow him to win and move forward. Since that fight, 3 of his 5 wins have come by finish.
One fight doesn’t change who you are, sometimes you just need to get through a guy and move forward.
And I also can’t stress how many head kicks, spinning back fists and flying knees Condit threw. He wasn’t stalling, he wasn’t point fighting, he was trying to engage with Nick in a way that was advantageous to him, just as Nick was trying to engage Condit in such a way that worked to his favor. The difference? While Condit was doing that, he outstruck Nick Diaz, let that sink in, and threw more moves designed to end fights than Diaz did.
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
Yeah
Vera could have won if he kept the fight in the middle, and just exchanged there with Randy.
He should have kept distance.
He shouldn’t have let Randy push him against the cage.
lmaginary Enemy - February 6, 2012
It's because I don't give a single fuck about what Joe Casual thinks.
I watch the fights because I enjoy them. Condit/ GSP isn’t a ‘loss’ for MMA, because Diaz/ GSP was never a sure thing in the first place. Nick could be contending for the title in no time, if he doesn’t actually retire. If he beat someone like Koscheck or Hendricks, he would likely be the #1 contender.
ElliotMatheny - February 6, 2012
I don't get how people don't see that
Diaz could easily string together a couple wins near the middle of the division and I could definitely see him knocking off Kos(with his ego) in a 5 round fight.
There’s also the possibility of a rematch with Carlos which could actually sell pretty well with enough goading and crazy talk by Cesar and NIck.
TheFilt - February 6, 2012
I wouldn't mind a rematch,
but I’m also not clamoring for one. Condit won quite clearly IMO, and Diaz would really have to retool his whole game not to fall the same way. Whereas Condit knows exactly where he had success, and can really improve on that.
ElliotMatheny - February 6, 2012
The fight was strangely polarizing
I had Nick winning the first two rounds by controlling the octagon and being the aggressor. He also landed a lot of really clean punches in those rounds.
The 3rd was really close, but I’d give it to Carlos. The 4th round was def Condit’s.
The 5th round started fairly even. The difference for me was the TD and back control. So I gave it to Nick.
I don’t think anyone can clearly say one person won the fight, but it seems to be 50.50 with people claiming either man ‘clearly won’.
I find it interesting however that about 80% of the fighters are saying Nick won though.
TheFilt - February 6, 2012
I definitely thought that it was a clear win for Condit.
I had him winning every round but the 2’nd.
ElliotMatheny - February 6, 2012
diaz is who he is
live with it, mma needs more complex individuals
razor thin fight. not sure how anyone can argue with diaz taking the final round when he had a body triangle round condits back for a couple of minutes.
it was just another in a long line of judging failures from cecil peoples, how does this man keep a job? there’s absolutely zero accountability for fuck ups within these athletic commisions
cheap_shot - February 6, 2012
this wasn't a razor thin fight or a judging failure, this was condit winning. deal with it.
diaz is a pretty simple individual.
like a schoolyard bully, you can see his behavour coming a mileaway but there’s not a damned thing you can do about it and the only thing that’s hard to predict is the level of nastiness
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
of course it was a judging failure
i could handle condit taking this one 48-47 but for cecil peoples to give condit rounds 1,2 and 5 is ludicrous, he’s been responsible for some of the worst judging of modern times, defend him if you want
you’re clearly letting your emotions regarding diaz affect what you post. i’d say he is unpredictable based on the interviews and incidents that have involved him over the past few years; you just don’t know what you’re going to get with him- he’s been respectful after fights and cooperative in interviews recently, something I dont think many people expect of him.
cheap_shot - February 6, 2012
“you’re clearly letting your emotions regarding diaz affect what you post”
no actually my assessment was from a totally level-headed perspective. i like him as a fighter, and his interviews are great. got no issue with him. i just don’t see him as a savant.
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
well if that is your level headed assessment then i’ll just have to put it down to you being wrong.
the vast majority of forum comments and fighters opinions that i’ve seen are giving diaz rounds 1, 2 and 5. however i’m willing to accept that a close fight can go either way with the judges, however what i’m not willing to accept are occasions when that judging is appalling..
how can the judges give diaz the closest round (round 3) yet not the round where he had condits back in a body triangle? we as an mma community shouldn’t accept mediocrity.
cheap_shot - February 6, 2012
“well if that is your level headed assessment then i’ll just have to put it down to you being wrong.”
out of interest..what’s your view of diaz? you said he’s a complex individual. how exactly?
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
you: “out of interest..what’s your view of diaz? you said he’s a complex individual. how exactly?”
me: "i agree with davids article. i think nick diaz is constantly struggling with decisions, meaning he’s hard to predict and therefore usually entertaining.
cheap_shot - February 6, 2012
I don’t think giving Condit 1, 2, and 5 is ludicrous. I didn’t really try to score the fight, but thought Condit was clearly winning so was suprised by Nicks reaction. I rewatched the fight yesterday to try to understand it and came away with the fight “could” have been scored for Nick, but no round did he clearly win. 1 and 4 I really see no way to possibly give to Nick. 2, 3, and 5 were all really close and easily could have been given to Nick. Of those 2 was most clearly a Diaz round. 5 could go either way depending on how much weight you give the take down and dominant position. Condit pretty clearly won the first 3 1/2 minutes of the round striking, but Nick got the takedown and back mount. Judges had to decide if the takedown and backmount (but never really threatening) was enough to override Condits striking advantage the first 3 1/2 minutes.
I’d agree giving Condit round 2 is a bit crazy that is the only one. I think a reasonable person could give Nick 2, 3, and 5 for the win. I also think a reasonable person could give Condit 1, 3, 4, and 5 for the win. A lot of those rounds were just very close.
carpediem - February 6, 2012
I don't see Condit getting the fifth at all
discoandherpes - February 6, 2012
Watching it live I’d thought it was a clear Diaz round, but rewatching yesterday I could understand it going to Condit (I’d still give it to Nick though personally). If a judge doesn’t put much weight on takedown and grappling (but no real damage or threat of submission) I could see it being a Condit round.
Bad/funny thing is, if Diaz would have just started doing a bunch of pitter patter punches from backmount for that 1-1 1/2 minutes instead of relentlessly going for the arm Carlos was clearly defending well, I would bet about anything all the judges would have given him the round. But since he never really accomplished anything from the dominant position I’m not super shocked a couple gave it to Condit (though again I don’t nessicarily agree).
carpediem - February 6, 2012
A reasonable Diaz fan
You are a rare breed.
I’m among those who gave the 5th round to Condit, for the reason you stated. And even right at the end, Condit was scrambling out of the unfavorable position.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
Agreed.
Condit outstruck Diaz in the fifth. Diaz’s success was taking the back and failing to secure two submissions while Condit escaped and reversed the position.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Condit was clearly winning the 5th round up until Diaz managed to drag him to the ground. You could easily argue that Condit did more in the first 3 minutes of that round than Diaz in the last 2.
Shnak - February 6, 2012
and condit managed to escape Diaz’s hold in the final seconds..
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
You can make the case for it
Technically, if most of the round is contested on the feet, the winner of the round i the guy who fought best on the feet. The first 3 minutes and 40 seconds of that fight were probably Condit’s best of the fight; he was basically landing at will.
There’s also the fact that while Nick was able to take him down for a minute, Condit did escape and reverse position. If Condit was saved by the bell, that would change things a bit, but since Condit escaped on his own and went back to striking on the feet, I can understand scoring the round for Condit.
That said, if I had to pick, I think back control and 2 close sub attempts are enough to win a round.
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
Everyone realizes that Diaz could have kept Condit in that body triangle until the bell rang, right?
Diaz knew the round was going to end so he recklessly went for the armbar and lost position. Diaz was showing gameness.
I would still give the 5th round to Condit, but one could easily make the argument that (sadly) the closest either fighter came to finishing his opponent was when Diaz had the back mount.
Moper - February 6, 2012
Agreed.
Mesonto - February 6, 2012
on the distinction between fighting and game planning
it’s because there isn’t a lot of glory in being smarter than Nick Diaz. the glory is in being tougher than him.
mollcutpurse - February 6, 2012
Exactly this. Lol
youfailme91 - February 6, 2012 via mobile
This isn't a Harlequin novel
It is a sport that judges its fighters on wins and losses.
This romantic idea of “toughness” and “glory” is absurd. Like any other sport, the fighters are judged on how many points they can score against their opponent.
Ulf Murphy - February 6, 2012
that section of the article said "among fans"
I certainly don’t pick my favorites based purely on stats. do you?
mollcutpurse - February 6, 2012
It's still wins and losses
Anyone can pick any favorites they want based on anything they want. The point he was making was that fighters don’t rise up the ranks by being a tough guy who loses. Being tough is admirable. But the winner is still the winner.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
You speak truth.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
ok i legit lol'd
well played
Cory Braiterman - February 6, 2012
Condit made Diaz ragequit into retirement.
I’d say he’s tougher now.
M.Sphinx - February 7, 2012
from listening to podcasts and reading the mma fan comments post fight..
..it seems many of us are idiots
specifically for saying condit was running. the sheer volume of kalib starnes comparisons is goddamn embarressing
during the sherdog podcast shortly after the event, jordan breen nearly punched a hole in his desk while responding to some of the nonsense aimed at condit. amusing.
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
Breen was in full-on shrill mode.
Grappo - February 6, 2012
yeah he's a guy who has a commonsense approach to MMA analysis
so i can understand why he get’s a little excited when confronted with some of the kooky shit being bobbing to the surface the past two days
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
I’d think he’d be used to it by now. Getting so incensed by a couple of emails… His voice was more annoying than the content of the emails. I thought his shit was gonna start cracking like Edward Furlong’s in Terminator 2.
Grappo - February 6, 2012
MMA CAUSES REVERSE PUBERTY
mollcutpurse - February 6, 2012
mma fans cause reverse evolution
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
Breen was awesome that night
Shaun32887 - February 6, 2012
I know how are you gonna say condit was running its called keeping disatnce but I’m no just bleed guy.
youfailme91 - February 6, 2012 via mobile
Condit should be getting a lot of praise
If it were so easy to escape being pinned against the cage by Diaz, I have a feeling Penn, Shamrock and a bunch of others would have gotten their back off the cage instead of eating dozens of punches. Diaz has become famous for busting people up against the cage because he is good at it. Taking that away from him is not a simple task, yet Condit was able to do what many others failed at.not only did Condit stay out of trouble against the cage, but Diaz was one of the fighters that threw the most punches per round and in a fight in all of mma, if not the fighter who threw the most punches. Condit found a way to slow down Diaz number of strikes, and outstrike Diaz. It really I sad that this discussion is taking place everywhere. Condit fought one of the best fights of his career and did things against Diaz that some of mma’s best were unable to do. Condit should be getting nothing but praise for his efforts. He proved he one of the elite at 170 and now one of the most dangerous fighters in the division. He is now as complete of a fighter as one can get. His TD defense was great against Diaz, stuffing all but one attempt. He has always been great off his back and great striking. His record shows he can submit people just as easily as knock them out. He has now proven he can fight a smart fight and follow a winning gameplan. GSP better be ready because TNBK will come in looking to leave with the unified title. I believe he will end 2012 doing just that. This will be Condits year. All you 209 wannabe excuse makers can move on. Diaz will not get a rematch. He doesn’t deserve one. He was beat by a better fighter and 3-4 months will not change anything. Worse, Condit would only show up to a rematch more confident knowing he has the formula. WAR NBK!
TREY JACKSON - February 6, 2012 via mobile
In Diaz's twisted Mind MMA is supposed to be a Pure Fight
He’s not there for the Sport of MMA he is there to fight (in his mind). He truly believes that people like Carlos and GSP play the game of MMA and Carlos played the game of MMA better and tried to score points versus actually fighting him. Again let me say these are my opinions of Diaz’s thought process. Perhaps Diaz thinks he can get into actual fights in Boxing but he will be sorely mistaken because he will get pointed to death.
Great game plan by Jackson’s but even better implementation by Condit.
Roman727 - February 6, 2012
I hear tweed helps those suffering from 'Taucoma'
Legalize it.
jasvll - February 6, 2012
Couldn't disagree more with this article
Quit trying to come up with some poetic bullshit to explain Diaz. He’s a fighter, and probably has a lot of mental problems but who the fuck cares? We pay to watch him fight. If you can’t understand why people are irritated with the way this fight went down then you are clueless. We paid to see a fight, and instead we saw one guy run away for 25 minutes. Did he pepper him with leg kicks that did absolutely zero damage? Yes he did. If that’s considered a win then so be it. People are pissed because they paid to see a fight between two warriors and it didn’t happen. Condit can become the next GSP and compete to not lose, instead of engaging in a fight. All of the writers on this site can cream their pants over what a smart fighter he is, but I sure as hell won’t be watching. Yes this is a contest, but it’s a contest about fighting, so I don’t think it’s asking too much for the two people in the Octagon to engage in an actual fight. If you don’t think Condit ran rewatch the fight.
cbrody111 - February 6, 2012
Hey, it’s another Just Bleed fan. yippee
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
Just Bleed fans have money that spends just line the elite, intellectual fans of the world. Unless of courseyou think Dana is thrilled doing 225k buys with the technically sound Frankie Edgars of the world.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012 via mobile
Good story
So having money for PPVs automatically makes you an expert on breaking down fights.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Nope , but it DOES make you a expert on the fighters your willing to spend money on.
Hutchy - February 6, 2012 via mobile
No, it makes you an expert on spending your money on fighters.
That’s like saying if I throw money at Stephen Hawking that I’ll be able to discern how he drew his conclusions about dark matter.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Spending money does not equal expertise. Where did you get this from?
Unabomberman - February 6, 2012
ya know what
If this fight means that a few thousand less JUST BLEED fans move away from the sport, I’m kind of OK with that. Yes, I understand all money is green, but to quote DFW himself, “they don’t like it? fuck em.” A few thousand less PPV buys will not kill the sport. I will, however, be just fine with those same less thousand Nick Diaz fans, since clearly, they’re amongst the worst people to deal with.
If every dumbass who yelled KALEB STARNES about the decision never watched, commented, or had anything to do with MMA ever again, I’d be pretty damn happy
Cory Braiterman - February 6, 2012
pointless remark
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
I still don't understand why people think that because Condit had this gameplan against Diaz, he'll do the same with GSP.
Tonley - February 6, 2012
Lost me after "saw one guy run away for 25 minutes"
Lost me again after “two warriors”
The amount of fail in this post is ludicrous
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Not engaging in a brawl is not fucking running.
You saw a fight it just wasn’t the war you expected, get over it.
Sweet Scientist - February 6, 2012
This fight disappointed me
But for a different reason than a lot of critics. I was just starting to respect Nick and really enjoy watching him fight without any other pretense. Then he starts whining in the post-fight interview. Isn’t it a bitch move “where (he) comes from” to make excuses and cry about how you lost a fight? Very sad. It also blew my mind when Nate said “You’re up 3-to-1, keep it up”. WTF?!
BKdroid - February 6, 2012
I don’t think you can lose a fight by decision where he comes from.
jasvll - February 6, 2012
Ha. Granted
But Condit was only landing more shots as the fight went on. Diaz is about as stubborn as they come, but he was beginning to get frustrated and let Condit get off combos with no answer. Who knows, one more round may have seen Nick succumb to the accumulated damage that he loves to inflict.
BKdroid - February 6, 2012
If there was ever a case for 7rounds
this might be it. It would have been awesome to see Condit’s increasing success in the standup and whether he could really hold out against a sustained grappling attack from Nick, especially when you consider how easily diaz took it to the ground and had his back.
GreyedOut - February 6, 2012
All this talk of Condit "running"...
… while there are zero complaints of Diaz claiming to win a fight by walking forward alone.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
Good point. “I thought I was winning, I was walking forward all fight, and took him down at the end”. He really sounded like a wrestleboxer there…
Shnak - February 6, 2012
In Nick's (and his fans') defense
We’ve all seen Leonard Garcia do exactly that. Plus Cecil Peoples was at the Judging table. The one thing Nick didn’t do right was windmill his arms furiously at thin air while getting hit over and over with clean shots. He did try it a few times toward the end, though.
BKdroid - February 6, 2012
Funny you should mention that
When I noticed that Peoples was at the table, I actually expected a decision that was going to award walking forward and missing. I was pleasantly surprised.
Matt Buckley - February 6, 2012
His card was still atrocious
I can understand the logic in giving Condit 1 and 2, but then to not give him 4 (the round he most obviously won) is mind-boggling.
Hummus5989 - February 9, 2012
David,
Do you read much Eagleman?
Disco-Platypus - February 6, 2012 via mobile
F**k yea
Did the ‘team of rivals’ reference give away my adoration away? I used his book in several of my articles on HKL, actually. But yea, Incognito is awesome, and he’s a fascinating speaker despite his thoroughly bizarre explanation of “possibilianism” or whatever the hell his hackeneyed attempt at intellectualizing ‘agnosticism’ is called. Still, the guy’s great.
David Castillo - February 6, 2012
I'm a huge Diaz fan...
Immediately when Bruce Buffer uttered “THE NATURAL BORN KILLER!” I screamed “Nick was F’n ROBBED!!!” Then I watched the fight Sunday morning (sober and unbiased) I could comfortably say there wasn’t a single round where I could definitively make a case for Nick Diaz winning… Condit’s camp put together a beautiful gameplan, and followed it from start to finish… Nick should have took him down and looked for a sub earlier… It’s his own fault he lost this fight….
Engelson71 - February 6, 2012
Well done, sir.
UncleMax - February 6, 2012
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