Judging and refereeing has always been near the center of combat sports controversy and discussions, recent UFC history is no different. UFC 143 saw a mildly controversial decision in the main event with Carlos Condit taking the win over Nick Diaz as well as odd refereeing in the Josh Koscheck vs. Mike Pierce and Alex Caceres vs. Edwin Figueroa bouts.
While Dana agreed that Condit had earned the win over Diaz, that didn't stop him from talking about the state of judging and reffing in the sport today:
Transcription (via MMA Mania):
I've said it many times. In the evolution of this sport right now, one of the big problems we're having right now is judging and reffing. It's one of the things that drives me crazy and attention needs to be paid to scoring and reffing. First of all, it affects guys careers as far as legacies go. Jon Jones? Jon Jones should be undefeated right now but he's not, he's got a loss on his record and there's tons of guys in the UFC that have those. There's guys who've absolutely, clearly won fights and lost on the judges' scorecards. Nobody's perfect. There's always gonna be problems. But the judging and the reffing is so bad in mixed martial arts, it drives me crazy. The fans hate it too and it hurts the sport. These athletic commissions really need to tighten up and start working on educating their refs and judges.
0 recs | 91 comments
To be fair, if Dana has an issue with the Jones - Hamil fight
mjanecek - February 9, 2012
he should be asking for a rule change on the 12 to 6 elbow
mjanecek - February 9, 2012
I think the fight was stopped because of Hammill’s shoulder, though, which had nothing to do with the 12 to 6 elbows.
BilboMcFonzie - February 9, 2012
Umm
?
chillnnsht - February 9, 2012
It was a miscommunication
Hamill was asked if he could continue, replied no (because of the shoulder injury) and the fight was stopped; the ref assumed it was because of the illegal 12-6 elbows, hence the loss.
Patrick Wyman - February 9, 2012
Right- that’s why Dana is saying Jones shouldn’t have any losses. Someone screwed up there.
BilboMcFonzie - February 9, 2012
Sure
I was adding more detail. The fact that Hamill’s deaf didn’t help.
Patrick Wyman - February 9, 2012
Yeah, thanks. I’m sure that had something to do with the miscommunication.
BilboMcFonzie - February 9, 2012
dana has an issue with jones-hamill fight...
yet he thought bisping beat hamill and sonnen, the irony.
carmine99 - February 9, 2012
How is that ironic?
Those fights are in no way analagous.
Worldisart - February 9, 2012
someone who sucks at judging...
as bad as dana does, shouldn’t talk about bad judging.
carmine99 - February 9, 2012
there was no judging in the jones/hamill fight.
Phildo - February 9, 2012
By the decisions he's endorsed in public
Dana is a terrible judge himself. Of course, that could be tributed to him wearing the promoter’s hat, and siding with the bigger draw (Rampage over Lyoto, Diego over Kampmann)
ElliotMatheny - February 9, 2012
Ok, I technically agree with him and I think the rule that got Jones his loss is complete bullshit......
However, it is a rule. He broke the rule. This isn’t rocket science. I know that Marijuana (as a long time consumer) is not performance enhancing and that testing for it is a waste of time and money; but, it’s illegal and it’s against the rules so it should still result in a ban if you test positive for it.
Brandon Starr - February 9, 2012
Lol “mildly controversial”, methinks Brent is trolling a bit there! Regardless, the Bruce Leeroy decision was a far worse miscarriage, I’ve been watching Combat sports for 30 years and never seen a 2 point deduction, let alone for inadvertent fouls. That was absurd, Bruce Leeroy trucked that guy otherwise.
Hutchy - February 9, 2012 via mobile
This is something I can agree with. I was stunned when Herb took 2-points after a single warning and flabbergasted when the judges found a way to give a round to Figueroa. It was made even worse by the fact that a couple fights later Herb Dean warned Kos 3-4 times and never took a point. Consistency is a big issue with judging and Reffing
BKdroid - February 9, 2012
Yes, BUT he kicked the guy two times in the junk. The first one was pretty brutal.
Did whatshisface milk it? Yes. Did he try to get points off a clean kick later? Yes.
But, dude needs to watch where he’s kicking. Erick Silva got DQ’d for one strike to the back of the head (that’s how I counted it, anyway, Yamasaki maybe saw differently in the heat of the moment).
Bruce Leeroy kicked the guy twice in an illegal zone. Personally, I didn’t really care for that fight either way.
thirdparty - February 9, 2012
The Erick Silva DQ was wrong too.
Guys get kicked in the nads all the time in MMA. I have no issue taking away a point if it happens multiple times, but it’s unprecedented to take away multiple points at once. Herb Dean was essentially retroactively taking a point away for a foul that already happened that he originally decided not to penalize.
BilboMcFonzie - February 9, 2012
I think being that close
and hearing the sound that loud, made him more susceptible to the emotional connection to the event. Man, when it happened the sound was LOUD. By the way Rogan was hilarious about the producers being mean by replaying it.
DankNabbot - February 9, 2012
I agree, but my thing is , Leeroy was winning! He didn’t NEED those kicks, he was rolling him. Did Herb think thSt Bruce Leeroy was thinking “ok I’m beating this guys ass, what’s my next course of action? I know, I’ll nad-kick him in epic fashion and ruin all my momentum! Awesome idea!” they were clearly inadvertent, Bruce Leeroy is just an inexperienced wild striker who made a mistake. Take one point (arguably) or call it a NC. 2 points? Really?
Hutchy - February 9, 2012 via mobile
That 1st kick happened in the 1st minute of the fight
Bruce LeeRoy MIGHT HAVE BEEN WINNING BECAUSE HE GAINED THAT UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.
aaronb - February 9, 2012
SIlva wasn’t DQ’d for the number of strikes thrown, he was DQ’d because Prater couldn’t continue to fight. If a fighter is stopped due to an illegal blow the referee’s only options are DQ or NC depending on whether he feels it was deliberate or not.
VenusBlue - February 9, 2012
The bigger issue in that Bruce LeeRoy fight
Was that Herb Dean seemed to be forcing Figueroa to continue to fight. After that second MASSIVE low blow. It should have been a DQ and the fight should have been over.
Bear minimum it should have been a NC and a move along.
Nothing about that was fair to Figueroa. And if that isn’t changed than people will still borderline use low blows as an offensive advantage.
aaronb - February 9, 2012
Bear minimum would be a mauling and tearing open beehives for delicious larvae
Though I’d agree that the bare minimum should be an NC when a nadshot reaches such dramatic levels
Pyrgz Krum - February 9, 2012
LAUGH
hilarious man, unexpected and funny as hell.
DankNabbot - February 9, 2012
“Bare” minimum, guys.
CstBoog - February 9, 2012 via mobile
Bare minimum
aaronb - February 9, 2012
If Gonzaga wasn’t DQ’d for the low blow on Tuscherer, than nobody should be.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
Also, there’s no way they should’ve let Tuscherer continue in that one. Doctor/ref FAIL.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
That should have been stopped as well
I think there is promotional pressure from the UFC on the refs to “get the show on the road”.
No reason for a ref to stand over a guy who was fouled and continually prod them to “cmon” “stand up” “can you continue” “walk it off”.
aaronb - February 9, 2012
Dan Lauzon/Bobby Green at Afflcition:Day of Reckoning, Green lost 2 points in the 1st, doesn’t have to happen alot of be allowed to happen, if a ref deems it fit to take 2, then they take 2,
Jasyn Zangari - February 9, 2012
Jones lost cuz he used illegal techs.
change the rules, but that was a legit loss based on the rules at the time.
RolloTomasi - February 9, 2012
No
Hammil could not continue because of his shoulder injury from the throw, not the 12-6 elbows.
Dpez71 - February 9, 2012
Just because he had a shoulder injury as well does not negate the damage the elbows did to his face. Anyone who saw his face after the elbows would not have any problem with Hamill saying that he could not continue because of the illegal strikes, had he not also had a shoulder injury.
alxn - February 9, 2012
I'm not saying that the Jones fight is a real "loss" we all know he dominated but
them shits was illegal.
RolloTomasi - February 9, 2012
That maybe true
But that is not what happened. He pointed to his shoulder when he indicated he couldn’t continue. And this may not be Dana’s argument. The fight should have been stopped even before the illegal elbow was thrown.
Dpez71 - February 9, 2012
Never thought of it that way
but that’s hardly bad judging, it’s more like unfortunate and bizzare that a deaf fighter was involved.
Bat sign language maybe?
RolloTomasi - February 10, 2012
*Bad sign
RolloTomasi - February 10, 2012
This could all be avoided
If we had
PancrasePride Rules.les rallizes denudes - February 9, 2012
Because there was never any controversy in Pride right?
Worldisart - February 9, 2012
Okay, okay.
This could all be avoided if we had
Pancrase PrideIronheart Crown rules.les rallizes denudes - February 9, 2012
Is Herb trolling us?
I don’t know what the fuck’s been going on with him the last three months or so. Really, really strange stuff.
BVandDietPepsi - February 9, 2012
Bruce leeroy getting robbed by herb dean out of that victory was the worst refereeing I ever saw in a fight.. I don’t what herb dean problem was that night
psychoblack - February 9, 2012 via mobile
I agree
And feel kind of dirty for it. Although I now understand it after seeing what happens when you root for a fighter.
BKdroid - February 9, 2012
Black on black crime my brother
Afrotikiman - February 9, 2012 via mobile
I agree. Thought it was way overboard.
I won’t let it fade me though.
Brandon Starr - February 9, 2012
I don't know, I thought it was reasonable.
2 point deduction for 2 hard nutshots. I like the symmetry.
ElliotMatheny - February 9, 2012
Leeroy still won every round
Not by your rules, but by unified rules anyway.
discoandherpes - February 9, 2012
The first round was a Figueroa round
That headkick and almost pound out made it 10-8. Then Bruce LeeRoy coming back with some grappling made it close. I still thought Figueroa did the most damage in that round by far. (Unless you count the low blow)
aaronb - February 9, 2012
Dana White is out to destroy Leonard Garcia's career
menckenstein - February 9, 2012
LOL. You funny
Ziggy325 - February 9, 2012
i see what u did there
Cory Braiterman - February 9, 2012
allglorytohypnotoad.jpg
ElliotMatheny - February 9, 2012
Serious question
Do referees get drug tested after events just like the fighters do? I suspect the answer is no, but maybe they should. Not pointing fingers as any ref in particular, but they do have an obligation to be in a clear state of mind for these fights. It’s in the realm of possibility that it could explain some of these odd/inconsistent ref decisions.
Baba Booey - February 9, 2012
I'd imagine they go through a workplace type drug screening every so often. Monthly maybe?
I could be wrong.
Brandon Starr - February 9, 2012
I think the answer to all of these problems is:
“shit happens”.
Must be tough observing and avoiding two guys bouncing around in front of you and being on edge knowing you need to quickly make a decision that could change the course of the entire fight.
Rosenthal often comes off a good referee because he is slow to make judgements and just let’s the fight happen. The referees that are quick to step in are more likely to jump to a conclusion and potentially make a mistake.
UncleMax - February 9, 2012
Excellent point, this is indeed the main quality that makes Rosenthal such a good referee. He never intrudes into a fight until he really has to, allowing the action to develop much more fluidly, and never becoming a deciding factor himself, something that a referee should never be.
Drunken cutman - February 9, 2012
They usually can’t even afford to test all of the actual athletes competing on a given card, so my guess is no.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
I can’t help but think that you are thinking of Herb here – simply because he has dreadlocks and appears relaxed.
Drunken cutman - February 9, 2012
Well they don’t call him “Herb” for nothin’! I kid, I kid.
Baba Booey - February 10, 2012
Boosh.
Beat me to it.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 10, 2012
The commissions need funds to better themselves
U really think local gov wants to put $ in there athletic commissions ??
Dana has to come out of pocket or stfu
RECE ROCK - February 9, 2012 via mobile
You don't see how that's a conflict on interest? The UFC paying commissions directly?
UncleMax - February 9, 2012
*of not on
UncleMax - February 9, 2012
More money for schools is a higher priority than more money for ACs. That should tell you where the ACs sit in terms of budgets.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
done right
it could be fine. There just needs to be barriers and oversight.
DankNabbot - February 9, 2012
dana would hire his own refs and judges in a second if he was allowed to.
Phildo - February 9, 2012
Doing that would be a disaster for the UFC
I’d turn the UFC into the WWE
aaronb - February 9, 2012
like every other sport in the world?
Phildo - February 9, 2012
League are not singular business entities...they are leagues
Leagues are groups of businesses. The Lakers, the Celtics, the Heat, are all individual entities. If one screws the other, they petition the league and/or sue. The UFC is 1 privately owned institution. Not the same thing.
warren305 - February 9, 2012
And the league itself is the one that hires, assigns, fires, grades, suspends the refs, just like the UFC would do that to the individual fighters.
Phildo - February 9, 2012
yes, but
the league is in theory not biased toward a particular team in the league.
this is where the comparison breaks down: there are no ‘teams’ in the UFC.
warren305 is right – it’s not the same thing.
oxala75 - February 9, 2012
the ufc is also not biased in theory. For every story of the ufc playing favorites and telling the Judges to let fighter x win you can probably find 5 examples of bad calls in other sports that different idiots thought showed things were fixed.
Phildo - February 10, 2012
Listening to Dana White talk after Cain/Dos Santos on that 1st fox show
Shows that the UFC president is a true unbiased observer.
aaronb - February 10, 2012
Hire is own judges???
I don’t think that would be good for anyone.
warren305 - February 9, 2012
why not?
all 4 pro sports leagues pay their own refs. despite whining out of sacramento and buffalo, it works fine.
the fact that the ufc is not trusted to do the same is actually kind of sad. they have a bad reputation based on how they treat their fighters (if you’re dan hardy, lose all you want, if you’re todd duffee, lose one and you’re gone) and it’s tough to say it’s not meritted.
Clifford J - February 9, 2012
They fund the reffing program
However those refs are a unionized group that is run separate from those leagues. Except for the NBA, which is notoriously been the most corrupt professional league in our lifetime.
aaronb - February 9, 2012
A privately owned fighting commission (not a league), with its own set of privately funded judges
Screams conflict of interest and demands lawsuits from fighters that feel they lost money on a raw deal. At least now if someone gets a bad decision, they can throw their hands up and say “we have no control over the judges or officials”
warren305 - February 9, 2012
Agreed
Which is why the UFC shouldn’t be in the commission business.
aaronb - February 9, 2012
How about some heftier fines for guys like Chael? The CSAC took money out of their own pockets on that one.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
Tweet from Captain Obvious:
@CptObvious: Nick Diaz tested positive for marijuana again after UFC 143. Surprising, right?
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
Drug testing confuses Brian because Bellator holds so many of their events on Native American land.
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
Damn wrong thread
Machiel Van - February 9, 2012
lmao I was like "wtf"?
Brandon Starr - February 9, 2012
the refs are doing their job
which is fixing around 10% of the fights. Go ahead and boo and cry and call me names.
There’s a reason combat sports have always been associated with the mob.
t0X - February 9, 2012
i do wonder
how pervasive the mob is in regards to MMA.
we have a great (by ‘great’ i mean ‘extensive’) history of mob involvement in boxing, so i guess it wouldn’t be entirely out of the ken of possibilities.
oxala75 - February 10, 2012
I see the judges being much more of a problem than the refs in that respect.
Seems like there are many more suspect decisions in fights than mistakes by the refs. The bad ref calls more often than not can be chalked up to human error from heat of the moment decisions. Protecting the fighter and whatnot. Not to say I haven’t done my fair share of screaming at them through the TV though.
NickRingp4pGOAT - February 10, 2012
Jon Jones intentionally threw illegal elbows
He gets no sympathy for being dumb.
discoandherpes - February 9, 2012
i'm a jon jones fan
but i don’t see how anyone can reasonably disagree with that statement.
oxala75 - February 9, 2012
Judge ineptitude is certainly a problem
But I think the issue is that our judging system doesn’t make sense in the sport. How can you accurately judge a 5-minute block of fighting, especially if the fight is close? That’s a pretty large chunk of time to compress into a simple score. On top of that, there are only three rounds, which makes it even harder to accurately call a fight. Since Unified MMA does NOT judge a fight as a whole—-likely the way that makes the most sense in the context of only three longer rounds—-we are trying to adapt a pointing style more suited to boxing, or fencing, onto a sport that is much more fluid.
For instance, if Fighter A opens round 1 with a good flurry and pushes back Fighter B, dominating the first two and a half minutes of a round, and then Fighter B gets a takedown and works minor GnP until the end of the round, how do you judge this? Both fighters ‘controlled’ more-or-less equal amount of the round, and, remember, ‘damage’ is not a judging criteria. More or less, like we saw in the Diaz-Condit fight, you end up flipping a coin and picking a winner based on who you remember landing the better techniques. Now extrapolate that over 3, or 5, rounds.
This kind of point style doesn’t really work with out sport, and I think that is a bigger problem than the problem of stupid judges.
Erasedhead - February 10, 2012
sonofabitch
I wrote a long post and it gets murdered on me.
Anyway, I just said the five minute round system in MMA doesn’t really make sense with a traditional boxing-based judging system. The rounds are too long, and the sport is too complex, to accurately break down into a 10-9 or 10-8 winner. It’s no wonder than close fights end up a coin-toss when they go to the judges. Probably a better system would be to judge the fight as a whole—-as in who won most of this fight, using the round more like periods/quarters in a normal sport. Of course this just opens up more room for controversy, but the fact remains that MMA is not a judge-friendly sport like boxing or kickboxing, where you only need to look at one-or-two points of attack.
I mean, to me the winner is the fighter who controlled the tempo/place of the fight and most actively worked for a finish. I don’t know if there is a system that could fit the sport effectively, since there are thousands of techniques to look for and, really, a close fight is as subjective to call as your opinions of music or movies. Of the last few months, I’d be fine with considering Condit-Diaz and Shogun-Hendo draws because to me there was no clear winner. But the sport, as a promotion, NEEDS a winner, so you’re more or less flipping a coin based on who won, in your opinion, specific rounds.
I think the ONLY satisfactory method would be to judge the fight as a whole, and then if the fight is deemed close, the fight a sudden-death round to decide the winner. Of course, this is also a pretty dumb/dangerous idea, but the current point-fighting method of judging in MMA is not really tailored to the nature of the sport.
Erasedhead - February 10, 2012
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